Scouting Groups Redux (970 views)

[delap]

Per eric's rule change here: tmbslsix.proboards.com/thread/945/3003-offseason-rule-changes , scouting is no longer able to be traded in multi-team deals.  Instead, the only approved trading of scouts is from one team to another.  This followed discussion of the value of like for like trades in scouting and what is the appropriate price for scouting information. A driving force for the rule change was the desire to remove scouting groups/cabals, etc.  In fact, we had a whole league discussion post about it, where the solid majority (14/22 votes) were in favor of banning them in the format in which they existed at the time. tmbslsix.proboards.com/thread/923/get-scouting-groups

There are several posts in that thread that accurately predicted the future... an unregulated market where groups are still sharing information with select GMs.  I know eric doesn't want to codify every single behavior of GMs in the league, so if the majority agreed to be in favor of the dissolution of scouting groups, that should be enough to have it be honored among all. Clearly that isn't happening. At the time, I even voted in favor of keeping full scouts and stated I didn't care about "sharing"... but I am of the mind that it is not good for the competitive balance of the league if the scouts of 30+ players are in the aether every class and some have access and others don't. It's the worst of both worlds (either everyone has access or no one does, imo). aeThere isn't a single thing that the commish can do (or should be expected to do, frankly) to police off-line/PM extrajudicial behavior of the GMs. The simple fact that I'm making this post will probably piss off a good number of people, but I frankly don't care. If nothing changes, this post will simply drive that behavior further underground/off of shout and other discussions and will continue unabated.

Possible solutions?

From the thread linked above:

- Move to a public "stats grades" system, similar to the Creation Draft

- Move back to a Hoop Summit system, similar to what existed at times in 4.0 (obviously we can tweak this to include more players, if necessary)

- eliminate scouting altogether

Offer constructive options, vote in the poll.  If the "new system" option wins, we can then discuss what specific path we wish to take.

[eric]

it won't be hoop summit fwiw, that's way more work for me and is just not useful - two strikes, it's out. i do the stats to test the builds anyway, so a stats grade system would be very easy to implement and i'm not opposed to it if it's what the league wants

[bankz]

No change.

[TinyTimPig]

Idk I've heard groups of 8-10 GMs will get together before every NBA draft to share all of their scouting reports in an effort to help each other out. I don't see why this league should be any different.

[skrouse]

The only way to eradicate it completely is to get rid of scouting and I dont think that is a good plan in a wheel format

[Odin]

change

stats

[Ankly]

The only way to get rid of scouting groups is to get rid of full attribute scouting and the ability to purchase information that not everyone has.

Possible solutions were covered in this thread:

tmbslsix.proboards.com/thread/949/replacing-scouting

[Trofie]

I didn't really think this was an issue this year, was it?

[skrouse]

I think there are a few things we could change to find some middle ground.  I'm not a fan of eliminating scouting completely, I think some form is needed for the wheel. I also don't want to impact the amount of quality content we are receiving, much of which is incentivized through scouting.  Which is a reason I am against some version of scouting via public info to all GMs. I think that would drive down the effort put into articles and result in less content. 

All that being said, I would be for changing scouting as there seems to be strong support for it.

I think we could make a couple of tweaks.  First, we could replace the exact scout attribute reveals to a letter grade system, with plus and minus. I think we could use the same letter grade system the software uses, which eric outlined in the mechanics article. See below.

This would introduce some variance in the amount of specific information people have about players.  We could also adjust the cost of the scouts and/or break them up a bit to make a full scout, even in letter form, slightly more expensive.  This again would reduce the total amount of information in the market place, without eliminating it completely. 

We could also split the full scout into pieces to make a full scout more expensive.  This would limit the amount of complete information available in the market place, legitimate or otherwise. And reduce the level of imbalance created by having some GMs sharing more information, while others having less.

I think we could split the full scout into 4 pieces:

1. Offensive Scout - shows Inside and Outside attributes as letter grades (ins jsh 3sh str jum)

2. Defensive/Rebounding Scout - shows Defensive and Rebounding attributes as letter grades (qui ste sho poD peD drD orb drb str)

3. Athleticism and Ball Control Scout - shows Physical and Handles attributes as letter grades (han qui pas str jum)

4. Potential and Hidden Gem Scout - shows true potential as letter grade and hidden gem status

These are the current costs of scouting:

15,000 - attributes, all attributes exactly
10,000 - private workout, the rank of two (+5000 for each additional participant) players in all attributes
10,000 - stats, the following aggregate per-36 stats from the season run three times test sim - only profile players can use this tier

I think we could adjust each level of scouting to be 10K each, that doesn't change the non attribute scouts while it would make the new price for a full letter grade scout 40K.  Which is actually a lot closer to the old price of 50K.

Proposed Scout Letter Grade System

rating grade
96-100 a+
86-95 a
76-85 a-
71-75 b+
66-70 b
61-65 b-
53-60 c+
39-52 c
31-38 c-
26-30 d+
21-25 d
16-20 d-
11-15 f+
6-10 f
1-5 f-

Thoughts?

[Sapular]

While I have been a part of a “scouting cartel” I also feel that scouts should be available to all. I do feel there should be a “tax” or fee associated with it but that fee gets you all scouts. I know the “tax” idea has been discussed. This way it’s not free but everyone has access to the info. Right now there is a competitive imbalance as some have significantly more information. It impacts more than just the draft as well. For example if I know a player is a hidden gem and the gm that owns that player does not I may be able to acquire him for a lower value. The problem isn’t that the value is lower the problem is one gm has information that others don’t abs it does help them.

I also think the scouting change should accompany a change in hidden gems as they are not at all hidden. They are well known. A true hidden gem should not be able to be seen unless an event triggers it such as a skill camp or breakout performance. The thought behind that is sometimes a single game or event can have things “click” for a player. I think these 2 issues are part of what is is leading to the lack of parody in the league. Some gm’s will absolutely target a player in a trade knowing they are a hidden gem and also knowing that the other gm has no clue.

I apologize if this is awful formatting, I’m on mobile

[Dirt]

If your going to make a full scout 40k just get rid of scouting.

If your that worried about it being unfair then no scouts until after the draft and your scout is 5k afterwards and only the player you selected.

Also your scout letter grade system is close enough why not just give them the number lol nothing really changes with just a 5 off.

Your sitting at 1.1 and you spend 80k on 2 scouts? Not a good idea imo. That destroys the little guys with little cash.

[IanBoyd]

Of all the options currently presented, staying with what we have is imo the best we have for the current wheel format.

The inactive GMs are always going to be a step behind regardless of what system we use.

[skrouse]

It used to be 50K for a full scout and articles rarely used to return more than 50K. We've flipped that cost:benefit ratio quite a bit where now an article returns 3 to 4 full scouts, even more in some cases. I think we need to flip that back a little bit.

At 40K each it's closer to a 1-2 articles per full scout. It also gives us more options, if you don't want to pay for a full scout, you could get less info for less cost.

[Druce]

What if hidden gems were randomized AFTER the draft and only included picks 20+?

[Dirt]

It's not difficult to find a scout partner and get 15 scouts.

The way I see it is get rid of scouts or keep the same.

Spending 100k on finding the right guy at 1.4 with your system will not change anything. The info will still be shared.

[Deleted]

this thread is like scouting fire in a crowded theatre

[Deleted]

the jury is still scout on this one

[Deleted]

i guess this thread really let the scout of the bag huh

[skrouse]

May 9, 2021 11:59:29 GMT -5 @jayz93j said:

i guess this thread really let the scout of the bag huh

[Chaps]

I think we should replace attributes with college/g-league stats.

But I also don't care about people sharing attributes scouts, so I'm not going to vote here.

[Deleted]

guys i found the culprit

[Odin]

cancel scouting

[eric]

if more people want to vote / weigh in on this now is the time, i'll be making a decision tomorrow

[Deleted]

vote yes if you think bk is cool

[Ankly]

I still think this seems like the most fun:

1. Concurrent Prospect Season

- During the season we would have 3 sims of 20 days in the prospect season that get posted (flexible on specifics here). Kind of like you're following the college season as it's ongoing.
- We would probably have a static set of non-draft players that are always in this league (and are mediocre rather than horrible). And then eric just swaps in the new draft class each year. That would give us a static baseline to judge prospect performance against.
- I think this would be fun because it would give the teams with high draft picks a few sims to look forward to each year. And they could look through all the box scores.
- I think this would give teams with top picks a pretty good idea of what they'd be drafting (before TC anyway)


Would gladly give up a mid season improvements sim to make it happen. Maybe even also insert an extra day into the season for sim 1 of this?

[Ankly]

Maybe you can still scout to purchase potential for like 5k per prospect or something cheap.

And I like making Hidden Gem Finder a new assistant coach.

[Ankly]

But I do think of this as either "no changes" or "drastic overhaul that replaces scouting entirely".

I don't think the middle-ground compromises really get at the heart of the "problem" that bothers people which is the purchase of secret information that will inevitably be shared/spread regardless of the trade rules used to try and fence it in.

[skrouse]

May 10, 2021 9:14:09 GMT -5 Ankly said:

But I do think of this as either "no changes" or "drastic overhaul that replaces scouting entirely".

I don't think the middle-ground compromises really get at the heart of the "problem" that bothers people which is the purchase of secret information that will inevitably be shared/spread regardless of the trade rules used to try and fence it in.

... that is available to all who wish to purchase it. I don't really think that qualifies as "secret information"

[Deleted]

May 10, 2021 9:18:43 GMT -5 skrouse said:

May 10, 2021 9:14:09 GMT -5 Ankly said:

But I do think of this as either "no changes" or "drastic overhaul that replaces scouting entirely".

I don't think the middle-ground compromises really get at the heart of the "problem" that bothers people which is the purchase of secret information that will inevitably be shared/spread regardless of the trade rules used to try and fence it in.

... that is available to all who wish to purchase it. I don't really think that qualifies as "secret information"

exactly. people who hate on "secret info" are just lazy bastards who are too lazy to pay for their own information. No one ever shared a single scout with me in 5.0 and I didn't bitch

[Ankly]

May 10, 2021 9:18:43 GMT -5 skrouse said:

May 10, 2021 9:14:09 GMT -5 Ankly said:

But I do think of this as either "no changes" or "drastic overhaul that replaces scouting entirely".

I don't think the middle-ground compromises really get at the heart of the "problem" that bothers people which is the purchase of secret information that will inevitably be shared/spread regardless of the trade rules used to try and fence it in.

... that is available to all who wish to purchase it. I don't really think that qualifies as "secret information"

secret as in non-public.