killiam bing
New Orleans Jazz
Posts: 777
Likes: 232
Joined: March 2022
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Post by killiam bing on Sept 14, 2022 9:46:29 GMT -5
Lebron is a scapegoat for all the rules slanted towards keeping contenders on top IMO Also give Dirt his credit, he’s just about perfected putting good-great players around Lebron by using his wheel picks in trades and current rule setup with mentorship. Rather than complaining about Lebron maybe we should try to tweak rules like: Box score rewards - Cap it some number, maybe 50k Mentorship - Limit how many times a player can be used as a mentor per stint with one team or just the times in a row Amnesties - Make it cost more or limit how often they can be used Bonus +3s - Get rid of them, give currency instead Just spitballing the above, but it should be harder for GMs to keep elite teams together. If those don’t work for you people then kick Lebron AND Dirt out of 6.0 Amnesties is the only one of these I would support. you think a cap on box score rewards is a bad idea? |
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Post by Sapular on Sept 14, 2022 9:48:11 GMT -5
no one is upset with Dirt. Dirt has also worked hard to stay relevant. LeBron is NOT a scapegoat either. I don't think anyone is complaining about him the way he is. It is just not consistent. LeBron should be broken because he is or was the most dominant player in the NBA for a number of years. The issue is it is not consistent. My issue is that if we are trying to "model" actual NBA careers (as much as we can, and yes there is going to be some ways to change that, I understand) we are not being consistent with this. I think LeBron is exposing things that's all. Should there be dominant players? ABSOLUTELY. Am I jealous I don't have him? Yes. Does that mean that recognizing that he is broken is bad and a slight to anyone at all? No. There is just NO consistency. This all stemmed from rw asking what determines potential. If it is what they did in their NBA career then there is some tweaking that would need to be done. The issue is that it is impossible to view ALL players the same and treat them all fairly. So here we are. there's plenty of consistency, and that you refuse to engage with proof of it shows how bad faith your argument is ok. again I choosing to not engage in a debate/argument/discussion but for this purpose if we look at the profile builds, LeBron James 100 Pot, Michael Jordan 75 Pot. Was Michael Jordan as dominant in college? He was not. Did he grow and develop as a pro? Yes, even to the point that he is in the discussion as one of the best ever. Eric I just choose not to debate or argue with you. It is fruitless because you are never wrong. |
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Post by Druce on Sept 14, 2022 9:49:39 GMT -5
Must be nice to get 1.1 in the draft year of a generational talent who happens to be eric's ride or die AND bk screws up by giving him two teenage TCs. last time i checked lebron went +8 in tcs, the same as chris bosh +8 from this: A- C, A, C+ B, A is a bit different than +8 from this: C+ C, C, C, C+ A |
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Post by 20s on Sept 14, 2022 10:26:46 GMT -5
Amnesties is the only one of these I would support. you think a cap on box score rewards is a bad idea? Yes, a cap makes no sense. If you think the rewards are too high, reduce them across the board or change the reward setup. Capping teams who are earning more rewards is dumb. |
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Post by rw on Sept 14, 2022 10:28:37 GMT -5
I'll sit out of the Lebron debate.'
But, what frustrates me is we use modern day metrics like TS% to determine how Steve Francis will be made in TMBSL. If we are framing him based on his actual playing career then we have to create him based on his NBA playing perception in the context of the early 2000's. Eric is trying to identically create Francis stats in the NBA in TMBSL when he should be trying to create a Steve Francis mold for TMBSL. The NBA valued different attributes and playing style than TMBSL therefore a replica of Francis will be, as we see, trash. Eric should be trying to create a TMBSL version of the 3-time allstar.
A guy like Steph Curry is/will be a god because we value TS% much more today and the overall PPG in the NBA is much higher now. The median PPG in 2022 is 110 PPG in 2003 it was 93 PPG (Francis 3rd allstar game and 1st year I could find). Heck the number 1 scoring team by 3 PPG, the Mavs, were only at 105 PPG. So of course Francis TS% will be lower, the entire NBA was less efficient.
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Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 13:05:54 GMT -5
I think adding more build types would be good. I know eric mentioned he has like 40 builds for each position, but most of those are rarely used because it doesnt make sense to make many centers with passing strength. Eric what about possible wider swings in the randomization part of the algorithm? I think you are correct that people will tend to gravitate toward the same strengths (i.e. scoring, blocking), but having more random swings in those players would give more variety. Something like double the std of your randomness could provide a lot more variety that could producing interesting choices for GMs, such as a shot blocking big that gets a big bump in blocking but also got extremely bad dips in rebounding or potential etc. the concern i have with more randomness per se is it brings the ceiling up meaningfully and nobody at the floor plays now anyway, which means a net talent increase for non profiles it would not be difficult to make a third possibility for build strengths on top of the two that exist now, some testing would be required to make sure they're all still balanced but that's just effort, not difficulty. fwiw one of the potential blocking build weaknesses already is rebounding though |
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Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 13:20:08 GMT -5
there's plenty of consistency, and that you refuse to engage with proof of it shows how bad faith your argument is ok. again I choosing to not engage in a debate/argument/discussion but for this purpose if we look at the profile builds, LeBron James 100 Pot, Michael Jordan 75 Pot. Was Michael Jordan as dominant in college? He was not. Did he grow and develop as a pro? Yes, even to the point that he is in the discussion as one of the best ever. Eric I just choose not to debate or argue with you. It is fruitless because you are never wrong. jordan didn't develop much as a pro though, he was all-nba 2nd team his rookie year, and as for "as dominant" consensus player of the year and two time consensus all-america going into the draft, don't know how much more you want him to dominate. let's go down the line on his states: mid 80s ft% start through end 6 rebs start through end 5 ast start through end <2 ast:tov start through end he went from being a horrible <20% three point shooter to a bad <30% three point shooter from the real three point line, and his ts% did rise a bit, so he should expect to see some growth, so he got 75 potential - some growth expected . now let's look at lebron, who didn't make any all-nba team until his third season. go down the line again: 6 to 8 rebs 6 to 8 asts <2 to 2.5 ast:tov low to high 30s 3p% 55 to 65 ts% the only place he didn't see growth was the free throw line, which works out fine since that barely grows in tc. lebron got dramatically better in the league, so he got 100 potential . it's not a question of engaging with me, it's a question of engaging with the facts, and when you keep making declarations that have no factual basis it begs the question of what the basis is |
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Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 13:21:34 GMT -5
last time i checked lebron went +8 in tcs, the same as chris bosh +8 from this: A- C, A, C+ B, A is a bit different than +8 from this: C+ C, C, C, C+ A which is irrelevant to what herb said. if lebron had similar growth to a player without two teen TCs, his having two teen TCs didn't turn out to matter |
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killiam bing
New Orleans Jazz
Posts: 777
Likes: 232
Joined: March 2022
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Post by killiam bing on Sept 14, 2022 13:22:44 GMT -5
I think adding more build types would be good. I know eric mentioned he has like 40 builds for each position, but most of those are rarely used because it doesnt make sense to make many centers with passing strength. Eric what about possible wider swings in the randomization part of the algorithm? I think you are correct that people will tend to gravitate toward the same strengths (i.e. scoring, blocking), but having more random swings in those players would give more variety. Something like double the std of your randomness could provide a lot more variety that could producing interesting choices for GMs, such as a shot blocking big that gets a big bump in blocking but also got extremely bad dips in rebounding or potential etc. the concern i have with more randomness per se is it brings the ceiling up meaningfully and nobody at the floor plays now anyway, which means a net talent increase for non profiles it would not be difficult to make a third possibility for build strengths on top of the two that exist now, some testing would be required to make sure they're all still balanced but that's just effort, not difficulty. fwiw one of the potential blocking build weaknesses already is rebounding though
I agree, but I think the extremes are what is interesting. Like getting a guy with 80 blocking but 30 30 rebounding, which couldnt happen with the current way of building.
I also agree with the concern about ceilings, but I thought since you run tests and look at the stats and stuff you could easily manually adjust any OP players that pop up, but I imagine that would be rare (<1 per season?).
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Post by Odin on Sept 14, 2022 13:33:21 GMT -5
i vote more randomness. a higher ceiling isnt necessarily bad just different. the key aspect of retaining interest in long running games is consistent balance changes and we havent had anything major in a very long time. the next biggest thing is having devs (eric) who listens to what the player base has to say and try to implement it, instead we have eric telling us "no, this is best because math".
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Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 13:33:38 GMT -5
I'll sit out of the Lebron debate.' But, what frustrates me is we use modern day metrics like TS% to determine how Steve Francis will be made in TMBSL. If we are framing him based on his actual playing career then we have to create him based on his NBA playing perception in the context of the early 2000's. Eric is trying to identically create Francis stats in the NBA in TMBSL when he should be trying to create a Steve Francis mold for TMBSL. The NBA valued different attributes and playing style than TMBSL therefore a replica of Francis will be, as we see, trash. Eric should be trying to create a TMBSL version of the 3-time allstar. A guy like Steph Curry is/will be a god because we value TS% much more today and the overall PPG in the NBA is much higher now. The median PPG in 2022 is 110 PPG in 2003 it was 93 PPG (Francis 3rd allstar game and 1st year I could find). Heck the number 1 scoring team by 3 PPG, the Mavs, were only at 105 PPG. So of course Francis TS% will be lower, the entire NBA was less efficient. like i said his actual playing career is a fact, anyone can look at the numbers whenever they want and see what the facts were, no matter what was thought by which people when. asking GMs to try and parse decades of perception, much of which turned out to be factually incorrect, any time they want to evaluate prospects is absurd - russell westbrook won mvp, now he's widely recognize as a scrub, which perception is he supposed to be built on? and incidentally the league isn't much more efficient now, it was around 53 TS% since the introduction of the three point line to around 56 TS% the last few years. the much stronger effect is that pace is up over 10% league wide from the nadir of the turn of the millennium, but the main point is francis was well below his contemporary league in efficiency when he made that third all star game. the voters were just wrong, and since we only have that wrong vote information for a couple dozen guys why on earth would we build on that compared to the facts we have on every guy? |
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Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 13:40:37 GMT -5
the concern i have with more randomness per se is it brings the ceiling up meaningfully and nobody at the floor plays now anyway, which means a net talent increase for non profiles it would not be difficult to make a third possibility for build strengths on top of the two that exist now, some testing would be required to make sure they're all still balanced but that's just effort, not difficulty. fwiw one of the potential blocking build weaknesses already is rebounding though I agree, but I think the extremes are what is interesting. Like getting a guy with 80 blocking but 30 30 rebounding, which couldnt happen with the current way of building.
I also agree with the concern about ceilings, but I thought since you run tests and look at the stats and stuff you could easily manually adjust any OP players that pop up, but I imagine that would be rare (<1 per season?).
stat tests are only for profile players because i have to manually put them on teams in their right positions etc. doing that for 70 guys isn't gonna happen i'll look into more extreme split profiles |
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Post by Druce on Sept 14, 2022 13:45:01 GMT -5
+8 from this: A- C, A, C+ B, A is a bit different than +8 from this: C+ C, C, C, C+ A which is irrelevant to what herb said. if lebron had similar growth to a player without two teen TCs, his having two teen TCs didn't turn out to matter you've exhibited over and over again that you just dont get it. this shit isn't fun and hasn't been for quite some time, and one team winning 7/8 titles just makes it worse. |
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Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 13:48:49 GMT -5
i vote more randomness. a higher ceiling isnt necessarily bad just different. the key aspect of retaining interest in long running games is consistent balance changes and we havent had anything major in a very long time. the next biggest thing is having devs (eric) who listens to what the player base has to say and try to implement it, instead we have eric telling us "no, this is best because math". balance changes all the time. no team has stayed a contender forever, every gm that is a contender now went through long stretches of futility before, the majority of gms have had at least some level of contention at some point in their careers and like i said, the changes proposed in this thread to player building are mutually exclusive, i literally could not possibly implement them even if i wanted to and it's finally worth pointing out this isn't some united front of the player base, it's a tiny minority, if you want a dev that throws out the facts and listens to them, the dev is going to throw out the facts and listen to the other tiny minority that starts complaining next. that's not even change for the sake of change, that's change for the sake of yelling |
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Post by Herby New Year! on Sept 14, 2022 13:49:13 GMT -5
last time i checked lebron went +8 in tcs, the same as chris bosh +8 from this: A- C, A, C+ B, A is a bit different than +8 from this: C+ C, C, C, C+ A In before eric points out that the jump from C to C+ is VERY large in terms of attributes, but conveniently avoiding that Bosh could have been on the cusp of C+. |
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Post by Odin on Sept 14, 2022 13:51:39 GMT -5
i vote more randomness. a higher ceiling isnt necessarily bad just different. the key aspect of retaining interest in long running games is consistent balance changes and we havent had anything major in a very long time. the next biggest thing is having devs (eric) who listens to what the player base has to say and try to implement it, instead we have eric telling us "no, this is best because math". balance changes all the time. no team has stayed a contender forever, every gm that is a contender now went through long stretches of futility before, the majority of gms have had at least some level of contention at some point in their careers and like i said, the changes proposed in this thread to player building are mutually exclusive, i literally could not possibly implement them even if i wanted to and it's finally worth pointing out this isn't some united front of the player base, it's a tiny minority, if you want a dev that throws out the facts and listens to them, the dev is going to throw out the facts and listen to the other tiny minority that starts complaining next. that's not even change for the sake of change, that's change for the sake of yelling most devs only hear from the tiny minority. millions of people play ff14, for example. the online presence is what, probably a 10k or so as a generous estimate? theyre the ones who are listened to, not the ones who dont care enough to post about it. |
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Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 13:56:40 GMT -5
which is irrelevant to what herb said. if lebron had similar growth to a player without two teen TCs, his having two teen TCs didn't turn out to matter you've exhibited over and over again that you just dont get it. this shit isn't fun and hasn't been for quite some time, and one team winning 7/8 titles just makes it worse. don't get what? herb said two teen tcs were the problem, the facts show that lebron didn't have especially great tcs, that's all my post said. if you wanted to piggyback some other point onto that and now you can't, that's not my fault you personally had your best chance at winning the title of 6.0 while lebron was in the league, there's manifestly nothing about dirt's run that made anything worse for you personally |
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Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 13:58:23 GMT -5
Druce and i'll put the same question i put to majic to you and for that matter everyone else, if i run a sim where lebron trades places with bird and the mavs still win, do you stop complaining about lebron?
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Post by Druce on Sept 14, 2022 13:59:33 GMT -5
you've exhibited over and over again that you just dont get it. this shit isn't fun and hasn't been for quite some time, and one team winning 7/8 titles just makes it worse. ? herb said two teen tcs were the problem, the facts show that lebron didn't have especially great tcs, that's all my post said. if you wanted to piggyback some other point onto that and now you can't, that's not my fault you personally had your best chance at winning the title of 6.0 while lebron was in the league, there's manifestly nothing about dirt's run that made anything worse for you personally anyones point |
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Post by Sapular on Sept 14, 2022 14:02:26 GMT -5
ok. again I choosing to not engage in a debate/argument/discussion but for this purpose if we look at the profile builds, LeBron James 100 Pot, Michael Jordan 75 Pot. Was Michael Jordan as dominant in college? He was not. Did he grow and develop as a pro? Yes, even to the point that he is in the discussion as one of the best ever. Eric I just choose not to debate or argue with you. It is fruitless because you are never wrong. jordan didn't develop much as a pro though, he was all-nba 2nd team his rookie year, and as for "as dominant" consensus player of the year and two time consensus all-america going into the draft, don't know how much more you want him to dominate. let's go down the line on his states: mid 80s ft% start through end 6 rebs start through end 5 ast start through end <2 ast:tov start through end he went from being a horrible <20% three point shooter to a bad <30% three point shooter from the real three point line, and his ts% did rise a bit, so he should expect to see some growth, so he got 75 potential - some growth expected . now let's look at lebron, who didn't make any all-nba team until his third season. go down the line again: 6 to 8 rebs 6 to 8 asts <2 to 2.5 ast:tov low to high 30s 3p% 55 to 65 ts% the only place he didn't see growth was the free throw line, which works out fine since that barely grows in tc. lebron got dramatically better in the league, so he got 100 potential . it's not a question of engaging with me, it's a question of engaging with the facts, and when you keep making declarations that have no factual basis it begs the question of what the basis is Michael Jordan has the highest player efficiency rating of all time , the highest plus minus, led the league in win shares 9 times...are there any other accolades that you would like me to talk about or no? I dont know how "some growth expected" results in an all time great but stick to your 3 stats that prove YOUR point Eric. The only thing any one is asking is to admit that there were errors and some adjustments should have been made. a 75 which, in your words, means some growth expected, IRL turned out to be one of the best players in history. Players like LeBron and MJ and Kobe should be at 85-95ish pot, not 100, and if one is then they all should have been or with small degrees of variance to equate to overall performance IRL. |
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Post by Druce on Sept 14, 2022 14:03:00 GMT -5
Druce and i'll put the same question i put to majic to you and for that matter everyone else, if i run a sim where lebron trades places with bird and the mavs still win, do you stop complaining about lebron? it's just complete coincidence that lebron in 5.0 and 6.0 had similar success that isn't in the same stratosphere as any other player. |
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Post by 20s on Sept 14, 2022 14:03:36 GMT -5
I don’t like it when mommy and daddy fight.
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Post by Herby New Year! on Sept 14, 2022 14:08:22 GMT -5
you've exhibited over and over again that you just dont get it. this shit isn't fun and hasn't been for quite some time, and one team winning 7/8 titles just makes it worse. don't get what? herb said two teen tcs were the problem, the facts show that lebron didn't have especially great tcs, that's all my post said. if you wanted to piggyback some other point onto that and now you can't, that's not my fault you personally had your best chance at winning the title of 6.0 while lebron was in the league, there's manifestly nothing about dirt's run that made anything worse for you personally Not exactly what I said and the cherry picked fact-adjacent fact shows he had TC growth similar to Chris Bosh. Lebron James is the best player in 6.0 and it's not close. The fact that you continue to argue that's not the case is sociopathic. Let's take for granted the "fact" you think you demonstrated that he didn't have especially great TCs - you're just pointing out how much worse Lebron could have been for the league. We get that you love Lebron. Please don't do this again in 7.0. <3 U eric and hope you commish 7.0 despite all this negativity you're catching here. It's just feedback and improvement areas. ;) |
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Post by 20s on Sept 14, 2022 14:10:04 GMT -5
I personally wish LeBron was better and more dominant, fwiw.
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Post by Fason on Sept 14, 2022 14:16:54 GMT -5
which is irrelevant to what herb said. if lebron had similar growth to a player without two teen TCs, his having two teen TCs didn't turn out to matter you've exhibited over and over again that you just dont get it. this shit isn't fun and hasn't been for quite some time, and one team winning 7/8 titles just makes it worse. I’m surprised there are still 20+ people willing to do this anymore. Kudos to all |
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Post by Trofie on Sept 14, 2022 14:31:30 GMT -5
If lebron didn't have great tc's as eric has admitted perhaps a bit overpowered as an 18 year old hs kid. Feel free to do the same with McGrady though.
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Post by Odin on Sept 14, 2022 15:25:50 GMT -5
logan doesnt think lebron is a problem fwiw, just the stale character creation process
but if we must declare lebron a problem then i think the problem is actually resignings. i would rather have no resignings at all and/or shorter max contracts.
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Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 15:34:23 GMT -5
jordan didn't develop much as a pro though, he was all-nba 2nd team his rookie year, and as for "as dominant" consensus player of the year and two time consensus all-america going into the draft, don't know how much more you want him to dominate. let's go down the line on his states: mid 80s ft% start through end 6 rebs start through end 5 ast start through end <2 ast:tov start through end he went from being a horrible <20% three point shooter to a bad <30% three point shooter from the real three point line, and his ts% did rise a bit, so he should expect to see some growth, so he got 75 potential - some growth expected . now let's look at lebron, who didn't make any all-nba team until his third season. go down the line again: 6 to 8 rebs 6 to 8 asts <2 to 2.5 ast:tov low to high 30s 3p% 55 to 65 ts% the only place he didn't see growth was the free throw line, which works out fine since that barely grows in tc. lebron got dramatically better in the league, so he got 100 potential . it's not a question of engaging with me, it's a question of engaging with the facts, and when you keep making declarations that have no factual basis it begs the question of what the basis is Michael Jordan has the highest player efficiency rating of all time , the highest plus minus, led the league in win shares 9 times...are there any other accolades that you would like me to talk about or no? I dont know how "some growth expected" results in an all time great but stick to your 3 stats that prove YOUR point Eric. The only thing any one is asking is to admit that there were errors and some adjustments should have been made. a 75 which, in your words, means some growth expected, IRL turned out to be one of the best players in history. Players like LeBron and MJ and Kobe should be at 85-95ish pot, not 100, and if one is then they all should have been or with small degrees of variance to equate to overall performance IRL. sure let's talk about PER: 26 - rookie michael jordan 31 - peak michael jordan 19 - rookie lebron james 31 - peak lebron james we can also talk about win shares placement: #2 - rookie michael jordan #1 - peak michael jordan #90(!) - rookie lebron james #1 - peak lebron james plus minus doesn't go back that far so i assume you're talking about box plus minus: 7 - rookie michael jordan 13 - peak michael jordan 2 - rookie lebron james 13 - peak lebron james by the stats i picked, by the stats you picked, by any stats anyone could pick, lebron james had substantial growth, jordan had some but not a ton. that's why lebron has 100 pot, that's why jordan has 75 pot . what you can say is that sim jordan didn't start good enough for "some" growth to make him an all time great - that's true! but as you've already shown all his box score stats are in line with his irl ones except for scoring volume, which since it is so heavily determined by DC i can't control in the first place this brings us back to the fundamental question - should players be made to try and produce their actual stats, or should we change them based on how well some subset of some of us regards them? how much should we change them? whose regard matters? you don't get what you want when i make the numbers just be the numbers, but if you think the outcome of a bunch of people shouting at each other on every player in every class will do you better you are sorely mistaken |
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Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 15:41:55 GMT -5
Druce and i'll put the same question i put to majic to you and for that matter everyone else, if i run a sim where lebron trades places with bird and the mavs still win, do you stop complaining about lebron? it's just complete coincidence that lebron in 5.0 and 6.0 had similar success that isn't in the same stratosphere as any other player. what i offered seems like a very simple way to test that. pick a number - how many titles do the bird mavs have to win for you to believe that lebron isn't the problem? |
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Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 15:43:54 GMT -5
don't get what? herb said two teen tcs were the problem, the facts show that lebron didn't have especially great tcs, that's all my post said. if you wanted to piggyback some other point onto that and now you can't, that's not my fault you personally had your best chance at winning the title of 6.0 while lebron was in the league, there's manifestly nothing about dirt's run that made anything worse for you personally Not exactly what I said and the cherry picked fact-adjacent fact shows he had TC growth similar to Chris Bosh. Lebron James is the best player in 6.0 and it's not close. The fact that you continue to argue that's not the case is sociopathic. Let's take for granted the "fact" you think you demonstrated that he didn't have especially great TCs - you're just pointing out how much worse Lebron could have been for the league. We get that you love Lebron. Please don't do this again in 7.0. <3 U eric and hope you commish 7.0 despite all this negativity you're catching here. It's just feedback and improvement areas. ;) not sociopathic, mathematic  |
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