|
|
Post by TinyTimPig on Sept 13, 2022 13:09:08 GMT -5
eric it seems like there is a disconnect between college stats and grades. 3 PG's went in the top 8 in this draft yet the first PG went #15 overall in this draft and the #2 overall pick almost certainly will not be drafted. As for prospects are we basing them on their college/prospect status or on their NBA performance? Because Steve Francis put up 17/4.5/4.5/3 in college on 52% from the field and 39% from the 3 point line in one year of D1 basketball. Surely those poor scoring grades and poor potential aren't reflective of those stats and time spent in college. Eric has said in the past that it's based primarily off of NBA performance, except where that's not possible (e.g. Len Bias). This is because he's not interested in college stats where you have to balance against things like the level of competition. |
|
|
|
Post by rw on Sept 13, 2022 13:34:12 GMT -5
eric it seems like there is a disconnect between college stats and grades. 3 PG's went in the top 8 in this draft yet the first PG went #15 overall in this draft and the #2 overall pick almost certainly will not be drafted. As for prospects are we basing them on their college/prospect status or on their NBA performance? Because Steve Francis put up 17/4.5/4.5/3 in college on 52% from the field and 39% from the 3 point line in one year of D1 basketball. Surely those poor scoring grades and poor potential aren't reflective of those stats and time spent in college. Eric has said in the past that it's based primarily off of NBA performance, except where that's not possible (e.g. Len Bias). This is because he's not interested in college stats where you have to balance against things like the level of competition. A bit sad, maybe a change for 7.0. I liked the potential for swings in outcomes. Still guys who put up 16 and 18 PPG in their careers only get one C and one C+, that's rough. What determines potential then? |
|
|
|
Post by eric on Sept 13, 2022 15:03:47 GMT -5
eric it seems like there is a disconnect between college stats and grades. 3 PG's went in the top 8 in this draft yet the first PG went #15 overall in this draft and the #2 overall pick almost certainly will not be drafted. As for prospects are we basing them on their college/prospect status or on their NBA performance? Because Steve Francis put up 17/4.5/4.5/3 in college on 52% from the field and 39% from the 3 point line in one year of D1 basketball. Surely those poor scoring grades and poor potential aren't reflective of those stats and time spent in college. i don't take college stats or draft position into account, and potential is based on how much they got better in the pros |
|
|
|
Post by Odin on Sept 13, 2022 15:12:47 GMT -5
1. as always, i volunteer to not gm and instead only make players
2. we should get rid of the +3 reward for winning a title
|
|
|
|
Post by rw on Sept 13, 2022 15:24:18 GMT -5
eric it seems like there is a disconnect between college stats and grades. 3 PG's went in the top 8 in this draft yet the first PG went #15 overall in this draft and the #2 overall pick almost certainly will not be drafted. As for prospects are we basing them on their college/prospect status or on their NBA performance? Because Steve Francis put up 17/4.5/4.5/3 in college on 52% from the field and 39% from the 3 point line in one year of D1 basketball. Surely those poor scoring grades and poor potential aren't reflective of those stats and time spent in college. i don't take college stats or draft position into account, and potential is based on how much they got better in the pros Is point inflation taken into account, average PPG in TMBSL is much higher than Steve Francis career. Regardless it seems strange Manu has B+ C+ scoring grades with A potential when he put up 13 PPG on 45% from the field (went from 8, to 13 to 16 PPG) and Steve Francis gets C C+ grades when he put up 18 PPG on 43% from the field with C potential. Same goes for Andre Miller (12.5 PPG on 46% from the field) and Baron Davis (16 PPG on 41%), and Baron Davis went from 5 PPG to 14 PPG to 18 PPG and has B potential. I'm salty because I really wanted a PG at 1.3 but there was no one remotely close. |
|
|
|
Post by rw on Sept 13, 2022 15:24:46 GMT -5
1. as always, i volunteer to not gm and instead only make players 2. we should get rid of the +3 reward for winning a title I back this, should make eric's life easier too, no? |
|
|
|
Post by Sapular on Sept 13, 2022 16:56:41 GMT -5
Eric has said in the past that it's based primarily off of NBA performance, except where that's not possible (e.g. Len Bias). This is because he's not interested in college stats where you have to balance against things like the level of competition. Except for Michael Jordan, who is arguably one of the best players in the history of the NBA, yet was out of the league in 6 years. IRL he averaged 30.1 PPG, 6.2 Reb PG, 2.3 Stl PG, compared to 4.5 PPG, 2.2 Reb PG, 0.6 Stl PG in Sim. It does not appear that actualy NBA performance has anything to do with it. It is primarily TC luck |
|
|
|
Post by eric on Sept 13, 2022 17:45:21 GMT -5
i don't take college stats or draft position into account, and potential is based on how much they got better in the pros Is point inflation taken into account, average PPG in TMBSL is much higher than Steve Francis career. Regardless it seems strange Manu has B+ C+ scoring grades with A potential when he put up 13 PPG on 45% from the field (went from 8, to 13 to 16 PPG) and Steve Francis gets C C+ grades when he put up 18 PPG on 43% from the field with C potential. Same goes for Andre Miller (12.5 PPG on 46% from the field) and Baron Davis (16 PPG on 41%), and Baron Davis went from 5 PPG to 14 PPG to 18 PPG and has B potential. I'm salty because I really wanted a PG at 1.3 but there was no one remotely close. i don't care about grades in the software scoring efficiency and scoring volume are almost entirely governed by the same attributes, so a very voluminous but very inefficient player isn't possible and vice versa. ts% is a better measure of efficiency than fg%, by ts% they go manu 58% francis 53% miller 53% davis 50% |
|
|
|
Post by eric on Sept 13, 2022 17:45:35 GMT -5
1. as always, i volunteer to not gm and instead only make players 2. we should get rid of the +3 reward for winning a title thanks for the offer. i'm good |
|
|
|
Post by eric on Sept 13, 2022 17:50:18 GMT -5
Except for Michael Jordan, who is arguably one of the best players in the history of the NBA, yet was out of the league in 6 years. IRL he averaged 30.1 PPG, 6.2 Reb PG, 2.3 Stl PG, compared to 4.5 PPG, 2.2 Reb PG, 0.6 Stl PG in Sim. It does not appear that actualy NBA performance has anything to do with it. It is primarily TC luck per 36 jordan irl did 28 6 2.2 on 57 TS% per 36 jordan sim did 17 7 2.2 on 55 TS% i can't control who gms do and don't make a scoring option |
|
|
|
Post by TinyTimPig on Sept 13, 2022 17:52:50 GMT -5
Except for Michael Jordan, who is arguably one of the best players in the history of the NBA, yet was out of the league in 6 years. IRL he averaged 30.1 PPG, 6.2 Reb PG, 2.3 Stl PG, compared to 4.5 PPG, 2.2 Reb PG, 0.6 Stl PG in Sim. It does not appear that actualy NBA performance has anything to do with it. It is primarily TC luck I'll do my best to summarize what I think the response is here... Jordan was good enough to go 1.3 (with arguments from some people that he should've gone higher). He went 1.3 IRL as well. So far, so good. Essentially, this tells me that he was built with the opportunity to be very good. You're right that it is TC dependent, and it seems like with even decent TCs he would've been awesome. I think I watched Dirt run a few test sims where this proved to be the case. It just so happens that he didn't get those TCs in the real version of sim, which is too bad, but I don't think that had too much to do with the way Eric built him. I'm biased and love Jordan so I'd probably have given him A potential, but that's really the only difference I can recall from what I saw in his build. Even that doesn't guarantee he becomes LeBron-esque (see: Marc Gasol), but it does give him a better chance to become league-breaking, which again, I'm OK with as a big Jordan fan. Also, I don't think the stats you included are fair as you used what he put up playing 10 mpg with the Mavs a couple years ago and not his career stats. He obviously wasn't IRL Jordan either way, but I don't think it's genuine to say he was a 4.5 points/2.5 rebounds per game player. He was really good defensively and racked up steals. For him, if he has any 3pt growth he's absurdly good. He didn't, and therefore wasn't. |
|
|
|
Post by TinyTimPig on Sept 13, 2022 17:54:24 GMT -5
Well that was a waste of time.  |
|
|
|
Post by Majic on Sept 13, 2022 18:33:33 GMT -5
This is what happens when an immovable object meets an unstoppable force.
Until Eric agrees that there are issues with the prospects we won’t get anywhere.
Lebron has broken the league and is likely to win another 5-6 titles.
I have no issues with players being built that have outcomes like Lebron, legendary players can do that. My issue is continually having nothing even close to Lebron to even the playing field. We continue to see other legendary players have huge big flaws and/or flame out out in TC. It makes no sense that none of these guys seem to get good TCs.
I honestly don’t understand the point of profiles if Eric only builds players based on their NBA careers. Profiles are generally written to only factor into their college careers, so what would be the point? I understand some guys blow up in the NBA after doing nothing in college but those are more the exception.
I like the idea of giving every player 2-3 strengths and weaknesses and letting Eric build them off of that. At least we are likely to get more variety. Then select 8-12 guys that are the “profile players” and give them more strengths to level them up higher.
|
|
|
|
Post by eric on Sept 13, 2022 20:14:10 GMT -5
This is what happens when an immovable object meets an unstoppable force. Until Eric agrees that there are issues with the prospects we won’t get anywhere. Lebron has broken the league and is likely to win another 5-6 titles. I have no issues with players being built that have outcomes like Lebron, legendary players can do that. My issue is continually having nothing even close to Lebron to even the playing field. We continue to see other legendary players have huge big flaws and/or flame out out in TC. It makes no sense that none of these guys seem to get good TCs. I honestly don’t understand the point of profiles if Eric only builds players based on their NBA careers. Profiles are generally written to only factor into their college careers, so what would be the point? I understand some guys blow up in the NBA after doing nothing in college but those are more the exception. I like the idea of giving every player 2-3 strengths and weaknesses and letting Eric build them off of that. At least we are likely to get more variety. Then select 8-12 guys that are the “profile players” and give them more strengths to level them up higher. you have as many fracs in the 10 years lebron has been in the league as in the 23 years prior timpig, delap, druce, kc, fason, fecta, ba, yawn, and sapular all have higher average fracs in the lebron era than pre-lebron there's nothing different about dirt's run and pete's run except pete got a little unlucky in playoff rng and dirt got a little lucky |
|
|
|
Post by Fason on Sept 13, 2022 20:45:10 GMT -5
Lebron is a scapegoat for all the rules slanted towards keeping contenders on top IMO
Also give Dirt his credit, he’s just about perfected putting good-great players around Lebron by using his wheel picks in trades and current rule setup with mentorship.
Rather than complaining about Lebron maybe we should try to tweak rules like:
Box score rewards - Cap it some number, maybe 50k
Mentorship - Limit how many times a player can be used as a mentor per stint with one team or just the times in a row
Amnesties - Make it cost more or limit how often they can be used
Bonus +3s - Get rid of them, give currency instead
Just spitballing the above, but it should be harder for GMs to keep elite teams together.
If those don’t work for you people then kick Lebron AND Dirt out of 6.0
|
|
|
|
Post by Majic on Sept 13, 2022 20:49:49 GMT -5
I just disagree with you Eric and I doubt it ever changes. Winning 7 of 8 titles isn’t rng luck, it’s one player being so good and you won’t convince me otherwise.
Fason, I agree and disagree. I think both things are true, Lebron is a problem and the rules in place make it easier for top teams.
And sure, dirt has done a good job putting players around Lebron but its easier with him on your team. It was a similar discussion with 5.0 Lebron, no matter who was on the team they always seemed to overperform and then fell off on other teams.
I love all the suggestions you made and would vote to implement them. The current setup is too easy for the top teams to remain that way, that’s been discussed in the past and I’d love to change it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sapular on Sept 13, 2022 21:14:26 GMT -5
Lebron is a scapegoat for all the rules slanted towards keeping contenders on top IMO Also give Dirt his credit, he’s just about perfected putting good-great players around Lebron by using his wheel picks in trades and current rule setup with mentorship. Rather than complaining about Lebron maybe we should try to tweak rules like: Box score rewards - Cap it some number, maybe 50k Mentorship - Limit how many times a player can be used as a mentor per stint with one team or just the times in a row Amnesties - Make it cost more or limit how often they can be used Bonus +3s - Get rid of them, give currency instead Just spitballing the above, but it should be harder for GMs to keep elite teams together. If those don’t work for you people then kick Lebron AND Dirt out of 6.0 no one is upset with Dirt. Dirt has also worked hard to stay relevant. LeBron is NOT a scapegoat either. I don't think anyone is complaining about him the way he is. It is just not consistent. LeBron should be broken because he is or was the most dominant player in the NBA for a number of years. The issue is it is not consistent. My issue is that if we are trying to "model" actual NBA careers (as much as we can, and yes there is going to be some ways to change that, I understand) we are not being consistent with this. I think LeBron is exposing things that's all. Should there be dominant players? ABSOLUTELY. Am I jealous I don't have him? Yes. Does that mean that recognizing that he is broken is bad and a slight to anyone at all? No. There is just NO consistency. This all stemmed from rw asking what determines potential. If it is what they did in their NBA career then there is some tweaking that would need to be done. The issue is that it is impossible to view ALL players the same and treat them all fairly. So here we are. |
|
|
|
Post by 20s on Sept 13, 2022 21:45:10 GMT -5
Lebron is a scapegoat for all the rules slanted towards keeping contenders on top IMO Also give Dirt his credit, he’s just about perfected putting good-great players around Lebron by using his wheel picks in trades and current rule setup with mentorship. Rather than complaining about Lebron maybe we should try to tweak rules like: Box score rewards - Cap it some number, maybe 50k Mentorship - Limit how many times a player can be used as a mentor per stint with one team or just the times in a row Amnesties - Make it cost more or limit how often they can be used Bonus +3s - Get rid of them, give currency instead Just spitballing the above, but it should be harder for GMs to keep elite teams together. If those don’t work for you people then kick Lebron AND Dirt out of 6.0 Amnesties is the only one of these I would support. |
|
|
|
Post by Trofie on Sept 13, 2022 23:08:31 GMT -5
The issue have is basing potential on just how much someone improved in the NBA. That wasn't and never was the point of this. This is why alot of profile players go in the 2nd and undrafted. Can't wait until michael olowokandi has 60 potential.
|
|
|
|
Post by Fason on Sept 14, 2022 7:31:26 GMT -5
Make sim league fun again
|
|
|
|
Post by Sapular on Sept 14, 2022 7:37:52 GMT -5
Make sim league fun again Now THIS is a platform I can get behind |
|
|
|
Post by Herby New Year! on Sept 14, 2022 7:57:52 GMT -5
Must be nice to get 1.1 in the draft year of a generational talent who happens to be eric's ride or die AND bk screws up by giving him two teenage TCs.
|
|
|
|
Post by montrealdude on Sept 14, 2022 8:43:45 GMT -5
bk and fucking things up - name a more iconic duo
|
|
|
|
Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 9:22:13 GMT -5
I just disagree with you Eric and I doubt it ever changes. Winning 7 of 8 titles isn’t rng luck, it’s one player being so good and you won’t convince me otherwise. Fason, I agree and disagree. I think both things are true, Lebron is a problem and the rules in place make it easier for top teams. And sure, dirt has done a good job putting players around Lebron but its easier with him on your team. It was a similar discussion with 5.0 Lebron, no matter who was on the team they always seemed to overperform and then fell off on other teams. I love all the suggestions you made and would vote to implement them. The current setup is too easy for the top teams to remain that way, that’s been discussed in the past and I’d love to change it. okay you don't believe fracs, what about swapping lebron and bird and seeing if the mavericks still win? if lebron is that broken, whatever team he's on should win instead. right? malcolm huckaby was the win share leader and mvp two years in a row upon joining the knicks, and could very well have made it three if ank set a dc last year dwight howard was the playoffs mvp for the sonics, he's the same ~22 PER guy on both teams gilbert arenas has been on four different teams, the only one he DIDN'T make all-nba on was the mavericks karl-anthony towns went from the hornets to the mavs and his PER went from 20 to 20, then he went from the mavs to the bullets and his PER went from 19 to 19 ike anigbogu went from the mavs to the knicks and somehow his blocks went UP from 4.1 desmond mason, troy murphy, saddiq bey, i can't find a single player who fits the bill of overperforming on the mavs and falling off on other teams. |
|
|
|
Post by Fason on Sept 14, 2022 9:22:19 GMT -5
bk and fucking things up - name a more iconic duo  |
|
|
|
Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 9:30:45 GMT -5
Lebron is a scapegoat for all the rules slanted towards keeping contenders on top IMO Also give Dirt his credit, he’s just about perfected putting good-great players around Lebron by using his wheel picks in trades and current rule setup with mentorship. Rather than complaining about Lebron maybe we should try to tweak rules like: Box score rewards - Cap it some number, maybe 50k Mentorship - Limit how many times a player can be used as a mentor per stint with one team or just the times in a row Amnesties - Make it cost more or limit how often they can be used Bonus +3s - Get rid of them, give currency instead Just spitballing the above, but it should be harder for GMs to keep elite teams together. If those don’t work for you people then kick Lebron AND Dirt out of 6.0 what's the evidence that amnesties helps keep teams of any kind together? you and 20s amnesty a lot too, you've both seen your fortunes wax and wane. dirt's team is still elite because he got a max level pg on a min and retained him, the only way he could have gotten that in fa with amnesties would have been by amnestying a key contributor and replacing them with someone worse |
|
|
|
Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 9:37:27 GMT -5
Lebron is a scapegoat for all the rules slanted towards keeping contenders on top IMO Also give Dirt his credit, he’s just about perfected putting good-great players around Lebron by using his wheel picks in trades and current rule setup with mentorship. Rather than complaining about Lebron maybe we should try to tweak rules like: Box score rewards - Cap it some number, maybe 50k Mentorship - Limit how many times a player can be used as a mentor per stint with one team or just the times in a row Amnesties - Make it cost more or limit how often they can be used Bonus +3s - Get rid of them, give currency instead Just spitballing the above, but it should be harder for GMs to keep elite teams together. If those don’t work for you people then kick Lebron AND Dirt out of 6.0 no one is upset with Dirt. Dirt has also worked hard to stay relevant. LeBron is NOT a scapegoat either. I don't think anyone is complaining about him the way he is. It is just not consistent. LeBron should be broken because he is or was the most dominant player in the NBA for a number of years. The issue is it is not consistent. My issue is that if we are trying to "model" actual NBA careers (as much as we can, and yes there is going to be some ways to change that, I understand) we are not being consistent with this. I think LeBron is exposing things that's all. Should there be dominant players? ABSOLUTELY. Am I jealous I don't have him? Yes. Does that mean that recognizing that he is broken is bad and a slight to anyone at all? No. There is just NO consistency. This all stemmed from rw asking what determines potential. If it is what they did in their NBA career then there is some tweaking that would need to be done. The issue is that it is impossible to view ALL players the same and treat them all fairly. So here we are. there's plenty of consistency, and that you refuse to engage with proof of it shows how bad faith your argument is |
|
|
|
Post by eric on Sept 14, 2022 9:40:11 GMT -5
Must be nice to get 1.1 in the draft year of a generational talent who happens to be eric's ride or die AND bk screws up by giving him two teenage TCs. last time i checked lebron went +8 in tcs, the same as chris bosh |
|
killiam bing
New Orleans Jazz
Posts: 777
Likes: 232
Joined: March 2022
|
Post by killiam bing on Sept 14, 2022 9:42:16 GMT -5
I think adding more build types would be good. I know eric mentioned he has like 40 builds for each position, but most of those are rarely used because it doesnt make sense to make many centers with passing strength. Eric what about possible wider swings in the randomization part of the algorithm? I think you are correct that people will tend to gravitate toward the same strengths (i.e. scoring, blocking), but having more random swings in those players would give more variety. Something like double the std of your randomness could provide a lot more variety that could producing interesting choices for GMs, such as a shot blocking big that gets a big bump in blocking but also got extremely bad dips in rebounding or potential etc. |
|
|
|
Post by Trofie on Sept 14, 2022 9:45:44 GMT -5
I just disagree with you Eric and I doubt it ever changes. Winning 7 of 8 titles isn’t rng luck, it’s one player being so good and you won’t convince me otherwise. Fason, I agree and disagree. I think both things are true, Lebron is a problem and the rules in place make it easier for top teams. And sure, dirt has done a good job putting players around Lebron but its easier with him on your team. It was a similar discussion with 5.0 Lebron, no matter who was on the team they always seemed to overperform and then fell off on other teams. I love all the suggestions you made and would vote to implement them. The current setup is too easy for the top teams to remain that way, that’s been discussed in the past and I’d love to change it. okay you don't believe fracs, what about swapping lebron and bird and seeing if the mavericks still win? if lebron is that broken, whatever team he's on should win instead. right? malcolm huckaby was the win share leader and mvp two years in a row upon joining the knicks, and could very well have made it three if ank set a dc last year dwight howard was the playoffs mvp for the sonics, he's the same ~22 PER guy on both teams gilbert arenas has been on four different teams, the only one he DIDN'T make all-nba on was the mavericks karl-anthony towns went from the hornets to the mavs and his PER went from 20 to 20, then he went from the mavs to the bullets and his PER went from 19 to 19 ike anigbogu went from the mavs to the knicks and somehow his blocks went UP from 4.1 desmond mason, troy murphy, saddiq bey, i can't find a single player who fits the bill of overperforming on the mavs and falling off on other teams. Huckaby can't even start for the knicks |
|
