Limit the use of Amnesties? (679 views)

[Majic]

***** Changed Poll to new options*****



There has been an ongoing discussion in shout today about limiting the usage of an Amnesty. 

It seems to be a general consensus that with the inflation of skrouse coin earnings we have not limited or raised the cost of an amnesty. 

Every other option in the league that a GM can spend money on to help their team is limited in use. This prevents GM's from abusing the power or using it to gain unfair advantages. 

Additionally, as Heebs said in shout, in the previous iteration of a full league it would take a GM multiple seasons to save up the money to afford 1 amnesty, now it can be done by posting 1 article. 

One concern eric has brought up around this idea in the past is that idea that Amnesties drive participation. Early indications for 6.0 show that participation is not driven by a goal to amnesty, rather just interest and excitement for the league. 

We have discussed a few options for how this could be implemented but I first think its important to decide if we want to implement a limit to the usage. 

Please vote and then share your idea for how we can set the limit. 

For transparency below are a few suggestions thrown out in shout today. 

Suggestion 1: set a hard date/year that the amnesty limit goes into affect

Suggestion 2: have it go into affect immediently and any new contract signed this next offseason is subject to the new amnesty limit.

Suggestion 3: get rid of them completely.

Suggestion 4: Limit to 1 every 5 years. 

[Herby New Year!]

Option 2.

Also introducing option 5, which is to increase the cost to reflect the overall inflation in currency.

It used to be that we had 15k possible in articles and another 10-15k in box score rewards.

That means an amnesty took 2 years of currency savings to pull off.

Seems like an option 5 could be increasing the price to 300k and doing nothing else.

[Majic]

Feb 22, 2021 16:45:45 GMT -5 Herby New Year! said:

Option 2.

Also introducing option 5, which is to increase the cost to reflect the overall inflation in currency.

It used to be that we had 15k possible in articles and another 10-15k in box score rewards.

That means an amnesty took 2 years of currency savings to pull off.

Seems like an option 5 could be increasing the price to 300k and doing nothing else.

If we do decide to keep it I would strongly like to increase the cost as well.

[Ankly]

I vote no amnesties for any contracts signed henceforth. Grandfather in old/existing contracts under existing amnesty rules that were in place when those contracts were signed.

If a replacement GM is willing to take over the previous GM's situation, I think they should get 1 free amnesty to be used on players on their roster at the time of takeover. They would not receive this free amnesty if they do contraction/expansion.

[Odin]

i vote amnesties have never been a problem and continue to not be a problem. i don't see a need to punish gms for bad contracts.

[skrouse]

Option 6: Increase cost to 100K (negotiable), limit it to one per team per season and make it a tradable asset.

[bankz]

I would be for amnesty cost increase to 10k per 10m of total cost on the contract.

So you sign someone to a 4 x 20m contract and want to amnesty him year one it would cost you 80k.

6 x 17.5 you pay 105k to buy him out.

[Sapular]

Option 7. First Amnesty is 50K then it steps up each time you use it. Allow a GM the opportunity to escape a bad contract on a legit error but then punishes those that are trying to abuse it. The steps do not reset each year, this is cumulative over your tenure as GM

[Majic]

If nothing else we need to adjust for inflation.

Articles used to net 5k, now they net somewhere around 50k.

I think its reasonable to ask a GM for 150k to amnesty someone, or the cost of ~3 articles.

[Odin]

Feb 22, 2021 17:42:19 GMT -5 Majic said:

If nothing else we need to adjust for inflation.

Articles used to net 5k, now they net somewhere around 50k.

I think its reasonable to ask a GM for 150k to amnesty someone, or the cost of ~3 articles.

articles payed out 50k in 5.0 yet there was no need to ever change the amnesty system.

[Majic]

Feb 22, 2021 17:43:50 GMT -5 Odin said:

Feb 22, 2021 17:42:19 GMT -5 Majic said:

If nothing else we need to adjust for inflation.

Articles used to net 5k, now they net somewhere around 50k.

I think its reasonable to ask a GM for 150k to amnesty someone, or the cost of ~3 articles.

articles payed out 50k in 5.0 yet there was no need to ever change the amnesty system.

we also had 10 active GM's and 20+ seasons worth of data to sort through and establish contracts contract value. 

We now have 29 GMs, most active, and a completely new market. 

Its foolish to compare the 2 situations in my opinion as they are so drastically different. 

[eric]

Feb 22, 2021 16:45:45 GMT -5 Herby New Year! said:

Option 2.

Also introducing option 5, which is to increase the cost to reflect the overall inflation in currency.

It used to be that we had 15k possible in articles and another 10-15k in box score rewards.

That means an amnesty took 2 years of currency savings to pull off.

Seems like an option 5 could be increasing the price to 300k and doing nothing else.

this timeline is off. there were no purchaseable amnesties in 4.0, they were introduced in 5.0 along with the new article voting system. i don't remember exactly which one happened when but they were definitely both in by the 2005 season per this post tmbsl5.proboards.com/thread/1821/rules-post

i don't care what we do with amnesties either way, just want people to have all the facts when they're making decisions

[Odin]

Feb 22, 2021 17:45:48 GMT -5 Majic said:

Feb 22, 2021 17:43:50 GMT -5 Odin said:

articles payed out 50k in 5.0 yet there was no need to ever change the amnesty system.

we also had 10 active GM's and 20+ seasons worth of data to sort through and establish contracts contract value. 

We now have 29 GMs, most active, and a completely new market. 

Its foolish to compare the 2 situations in my opinion as they are so drastically different. 

the only logical conclusion to come to from having double GMs is double the amount of amnesties. which, on average, would be ~2 per year. and the 5.0 yearly amnesty average started well after all of the shitty creation contracts were out of the league, and those are the only deals we're seeing amnestied now therefore i believe the numbers are an aberration and not what we will see moving forward. so we are currently sitting at 0 relevant amnesties in two seasons until dirt gets his in this offseason, and unless he does 5 of them we're still below the average number of amnesties in 5.0.

[Odin]

Feb 22, 2021 17:50:21 GMT -5 eric said:

Feb 22, 2021 16:45:45 GMT -5 Herby New Year! said:

Option 2.

Also introducing option 5, which is to increase the cost to reflect the overall inflation in currency.

It used to be that we had 15k possible in articles and another 10-15k in box score rewards.

That means an amnesty took 2 years of currency savings to pull off.

Seems like an option 5 could be increasing the price to 300k and doing nothing else.

this timeline is off. there were no purchaseable amnesties in 4.0, they were introduced in 5.0 along with the new article voting system. i don't remember exactly which one happened when but they were definitely both in by the 2005 season per this post tmbsl5.proboards.com/thread/1821/rules-post

i don't care what we do with amnesties either way, just want people to have all the facts when they're making decisions

not only that but 10k was a very rare box payout in 5.0 and is borderline impossible in 6.0.

[TinyTimPig]

Feb 22, 2021 17:50:21 GMT -5 eric said:

Feb 22, 2021 16:45:45 GMT -5 Herby New Year! said:

Option 2.

Also introducing option 5, which is to increase the cost to reflect the overall inflation in currency.

It used to be that we had 15k possible in articles and another 10-15k in box score rewards.

That means an amnesty took 2 years of currency savings to pull off.

Seems like an option 5 could be increasing the price to 300k and doing nothing else.

this timeline is off. there were no purchaseable amnesties in 4.0, they were introduced in 5.0 along with the new article voting system. i don't remember exactly which one happened when but they were definitely both in by the 2005 season per this post tmbsl5.proboards.com/thread/1821/rules-post

i don't care what we do with amnesties either way, just want people to have all the facts when they're making decisions

Here is the 4.0 rewards link where amnesties are listed for 60,000.

[20s]

Feb 22, 2021 17:50:21 GMT -5 eric said:

Feb 22, 2021 16:45:45 GMT -5 Herby New Year! said:

Option 2.

Also introducing option 5, which is to increase the cost to reflect the overall inflation in currency.

It used to be that we had 15k possible in articles and another 10-15k in box score rewards.

That means an amnesty took 2 years of currency savings to pull off.

Seems like an option 5 could be increasing the price to 300k and doing nothing else.

this timeline is off. there were no purchaseable amnesties in 4.0, they were introduced in 5.0 along with the new article voting system. i don't remember exactly which one happened when but they were definitely both in by the 2005 season per this post tmbsl5.proboards.com/thread/1821/rules-post

i don't care what we do with amnesties either way, just want people to have all the facts when they're making decisions

We had amnesties as an option in 4.0, they were just so expensive it was literally never used.  I didn't participate in 5.0 but I know amnesties were a reward in the league I participated in.

[TinyTimPig]

Feb 22, 2021 17:50:27 GMT -5 Odin said:

Feb 22, 2021 17:45:48 GMT -5 Majic said:

we also had 10 active GM's and 20+ seasons worth of data to sort through and establish contracts contract value. 

We now have 29 GMs, most active, and a completely new market. 

Its foolish to compare the 2 situations in my opinion as they are so drastically different. 

the only logical conclusion to come to from having double GMs is double the amount of amnesties. which, on average, would be ~2 per year. and the 5.0 yearly amnesty average started well after all of the shitty creation contracts were out of the league, and those are the only deals we're seeing amnestied now therefore i believe the numbers are an aberration and not what we will see moving forward. so we are currently sitting at 0 relevant amnesties in two seasons until dirt gets his in this offseason, and unless he does 5 of them we're still below the average number of amnesties in 5.0.

Creation contracts were all expired by the time article voting standards changed.

[20s]

Feb 22, 2021 17:50:21 GMT -5 eric said:

Feb 22, 2021 16:45:45 GMT -5 Herby New Year! said:

Option 2.

Also introducing option 5, which is to increase the cost to reflect the overall inflation in currency.

It used to be that we had 15k possible in articles and another 10-15k in box score rewards.

That means an amnesty took 2 years of currency savings to pull off.

Seems like an option 5 could be increasing the price to 300k and doing nothing else.

this timeline is off. there were no purchaseable amnesties in 4.0, they were introduced in 5.0 along with the new article voting system. i don't remember exactly which one happened when but they were definitely both in by the 2005 season per this post tmbsl5.proboards.com/thread/1821/rules-post

i don't care what we do with amnesties either way, just want people to have all the facts when they're making decisions

Team Rewards:

Amnesty contract - 60,000

Buyout contract (HC rules still apply) -20,000

Stash Prospect - 20,000 (must be rookie drafted outside lotto. players will receive +5 potential. players will return to their team in two years on a three year deal.)

Fake TC rookie - 8000

Extend additional 2nd round player - 3500

RFA - You can make any player taken after 1.20 a RFA. This must be done before the player's 2nd TC - 15,000

MAX Contract Extension - You can extend any player to a full 7 year max that begins in their 4th season. This must be done before the player's 2nd TC - 100,000

lolwrongtmbsl.proboards.com/thread/3244/achievements-rewards-official-thread

[Odin]

Feb 22, 2021 17:53:48 GMT -5 TinyTimPig said:

Feb 22, 2021 17:50:27 GMT -5 Odin said:

the only logical conclusion to come to from having double GMs is double the amount of amnesties. which, on average, would be ~2 per year. and the 5.0 yearly amnesty average started well after all of the shitty creation contracts were out of the league, and those are the only deals we're seeing amnestied now therefore i believe the numbers are an aberration and not what we will see moving forward. so we are currently sitting at 0 relevant amnesties in two seasons until dirt gets his in this offseason, and unless he does 5 of them we're still below the average number of amnesties in 5.0.

Creation contracts were all expired by the time article voting standards changed.

and before we had purchasable amnesties

[TinyTimPig]

Feb 22, 2021 17:55:02 GMT -5 Odin said:

Feb 22, 2021 17:53:48 GMT -5 TinyTimPig said:

Creation contracts were all expired by the time article voting standards changed.

and before we had purchasable amnesties

Here is the initial Rules post from when 5.0 was launched that had the purchasable amnesty for 50,000.

[eric]

mb on 4.0 but early 5.0 is still relevant imo

[Odin]

just posted this in shout:

current style of article voting started in 3005. payouts were still pretty low. they ramped up to about ~30k for artciles, a bit more for pods by 3035.

we had 25 amnesties 05-35
we had 15 amnesties 36-51

both averages are less than 1 per year with a very marginal increase between the two eras, which i feel is a fine number considering 15 GMs. we now have 29 GMs, so you would expect that number to double, and imo, that's still a fine number. because i don't believe in punishing GMs for bad offers. not everyone is a l33t gamer and we should accept that. there's no reason tmbsl should be on super hardcore mode.

regardless, the general cost of a reasonable number of amnesties was 1.5 articles. due to the fact that article payouts have increased another 50% in 6.0 i think it's reasonable that the first change to amnesties be raising the price to 75k. however, i don't believe that is necessary until we get some real data on how frequent amnesties will be in the post creation contract era of 6.0.

while you may want change now, i urge you to wait and see if there's actually a problem with the current price instead of making a quick decision. there's so many current contracts on players who are just terrible, awful creation scrubs whose only purpose in the league is to be amnestied. once we rid ourselves of that scourge i would be shocked if anyone (other than majic) thought there was a problem.

[Ankly]

Feb 22, 2021 18:23:45 GMT -5 Odin said:

just posted this in shout:

current style of article voting started in 3005. payouts were still pretty low. they ramped up to about ~30k for artciles, a bit more for pods by 3035.

we had 25 amnesties 05-35
we had 15 amnesties 36-51

both averages are less than 1 per year with a very marginal increase between the two eras, which i feel is a fine number considering 15 GMs. we now have 29 GMs, so you would expect that number to double, and imo, that's still a fine number. because i don't believe in punishing GMs for bad offers. not everyone is a l33t gamer and we should accept that. there's no reason tmbsl should be on super hardcore mode.

regardless, the general cost of a reasonable number of amnesties was 1.5 articles. due to the fact that article payouts have increased another 50% in 6.0 i think it's reasonable that the first change to amnesties be raising the price to 75k. however, i don't believe that is necessary until we get some real data on how frequent amnesties will be in the post creation contract era of 6.0.

while you may want change now, i urge you to wait and see if there's actually a problem with the current price instead of making a quick decision. there's so many current contracts on players who are just terrible, awful creation scrubs whose only purpose in the league is to be amnestied. once we rid ourselves of that scourge i would be shocked if anyone (other than majic) thought there was a problem.

I think having unlimited amnesties for purchase overly rewards the l33t TMBSL gamers.

I think your point would be addressed by allowing 1 amnesty per x years or something.

[Odin]

Feb 22, 2021 18:47:18 GMT -5 Ankly said:

Feb 22, 2021 18:23:45 GMT -5 Odin said:

just posted this in shout:

current style of article voting started in 3005. payouts were still pretty low. they ramped up to about ~30k for artciles, a bit more for pods by 3035.

we had 25 amnesties 05-35
we had 15 amnesties 36-51

both averages are less than 1 per year with a very marginal increase between the two eras, which i feel is a fine number considering 15 GMs. we now have 29 GMs, so you would expect that number to double, and imo, that's still a fine number. because i don't believe in punishing GMs for bad offers. not everyone is a l33t gamer and we should accept that. there's no reason tmbsl should be on super hardcore mode.

regardless, the general cost of a reasonable number of amnesties was 1.5 articles. due to the fact that article payouts have increased another 50% in 6.0 i think it's reasonable that the first change to amnesties be raising the price to 75k. however, i don't believe that is necessary until we get some real data on how frequent amnesties will be in the post creation contract era of 6.0.

while you may want change now, i urge you to wait and see if there's actually a problem with the current price instead of making a quick decision. there's so many current contracts on players who are just terrible, awful creation scrubs whose only purpose in the league is to be amnestied. once we rid ourselves of that scourge i would be shocked if anyone (other than majic) thought there was a problem.

I think having unlimited amnesties for purchase overly rewards the l33t TMBSL gamers.

I think your point would be addressed by allowing 1 amnesty per x years or something.

ultimately we're here to have fun and its not fun to be stuck with ridiculous contracts.

[Ankly]

Feb 22, 2021 18:57:18 GMT -5 Odin said:

Feb 22, 2021 18:47:18 GMT -5 Ankly said:

I think having unlimited amnesties for purchase overly rewards the l33t TMBSL gamers.

I think your point would be addressed by allowing 1 amnesty per x years or something.

ultimately we're here to have fun and its not fun to be stuck with ridiculous contracts.

Then don't make ridiculous contract offers

[Odin]

Feb 22, 2021 18:59:09 GMT -5 Ankly said:

Feb 22, 2021 18:57:18 GMT -5 Odin said:

ultimately we're here to have fun and its not fun to be stuck with ridiculous contracts.

Then don't make ridiculous contract offers

there's not always a way to know what is ridiculous, even for experienced GMs. inexperienced GMs do it often then quit when they're in a tough spot. no one wants that.

[Herby New Year!]

Feb 22, 2021 17:50:21 GMT -5 eric said:

Feb 22, 2021 16:45:45 GMT -5 Herby New Year! said:

Option 2.

Also introducing option 5, which is to increase the cost to reflect the overall inflation in currency.

It used to be that we had 15k possible in articles and another 10-15k in box score rewards.

That means an amnesty took 2 years of currency savings to pull off.

Seems like an option 5 could be increasing the price to 300k and doing nothing else.

this timeline is off. there were no purchaseable amnesties in 4.0, they were introduced in 5.0 along with the new article voting system. i don't remember exactly which one happened when but they were definitely both in by the 2005 season per this post tmbsl5.proboards.com/thread/1821/rules-post

i don't care what we do with amnesties either way, just want people to have all the facts when they're making decisions

Well this snarky ass response aged well. 

[jhb]

We have had 4 amnesties, with 3 of them from the same person?

What's the issue?

[Druce]

i'd like to amnesty jhb from his position of owed assets updater guy

[Deleted]

Id like to point out that the only amnesties used so far are on creation picks
The abuse of the amnesty on free agents is purely theoretical at the moment