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Post by delap on Oct 25, 2021 8:39:31 GMT -5
Initial Standings (Sim 1)
Given the technical snafus with name changes, etc., there are no PreSeason stats that are easily sortable, so we are doing a Sim 1 standings instead. This means that upgrades have largely been applied (except where noted) and that samples are SUPER small... so there is a much higher potential for volatility between this ranking and what we'll see at Days 40/80/End of Season. More than ever, this is just a total guess at the start. Because of that, we're going all the way to 11 for the first update, because it's a Monday morning and I don't feel like thinking hard. The HM list is short, because the class really doesn't look deep right now.
1. Markelle Fultz - Cleveland Cavaliers 1st in P/TSA, low TOs, not terrible on the boards... kinda terrible on defense. He got his +30, but didn't get camped, so who knows where this is headed. He got a +23 to his jumper, hopefully the high FT% we see is the real deal.
2. Jayson Tatum - Phoenix Suns Not much to dislike with the 1.1 pick, except no counting stats on defense. He's shooting at league average/slightly above league average already, he is a strong rebounder, and he never turns it over. Only got 20/30 of his uppies, so there is a bit more that andy luck can do to polish a rough edge or two.
3. Jaron Blossomgame - Seattle SuperSonics The +55 special (Mentored Hidden Gem) has boosted Blossom's game to a high level. At the moment he looks a bit like Tatum, but stronger on D while not rebounding as well and turning it over a bit more (but not that that is a TO problem at all).
4. John Collins - Washington Bullets Small sample, as with everyone, but if Collins can maintain these types of numbers he will be in strong contention for the top spot. Less than a TO/36, averaging a 20/10 on incredible efficiency, and pretty decent defensive numbers, I like it. He also did NOT receive any upgrades yet, so there is a lot of bump to be had after Sim 4 for him (assuming yawn does his job).
5. Lonzo Ball - Texas Chaparrals Defensive stopper at the point of attack, decent efficiency, and pretty good TO rate for a rookie point. He got all of his upgrades poured into a broken jumpshot... and still only managed to shoot 56% from the FT line. That sample is very small, obviously (16 FTA), so if that ends up being mid-70s I think we have a player here... if it doesn't, yikes.
6. V.J. Beachem - Los Angeles Lakers I consider myself to be very plugged-in to the NBA and professional basketball players, and moderately plugged-in to college ball... and I don't know who this guy is. Never heard of him. Anyway... He got +35 to his inside game and it paid off, as he was #2 in P/TSA and did everything well in his 120 MP so far. His stats are like a poor man's Tatum/Blossomgame. We've seen this before though, so he is my leading candidate for a major drop-off as the sample increases... but for now, I'll give him mild props.
7. Justin Patton - San Antonio Spurs Not a good rebounder, but very solid in every other aspect of the game. Patton has some counting stats on D, is efficient, scores at decent volume, and is a fairly low TO player. He still has his +30 left, too, so like Collins, he could be a big upward mover in the next couple updates if pointy treats him right.
8. Alpha Kaba - Washington Bullets Well, he turns it over WAY too much, but the rest is pretty OK! His efficiency is around league average, which is fine, he's the best rebounder in the class, but his defensive stats are not quite what yawn was hoping for coming out of college. Like his frontcourt mate, John Collins, yawn has neglected to upgrade him at this point. Who gets the upgrade points? Do they each get +15? These are the questions we are asking here at Ladder, Inc. The answers will likely impact the ultimate ladder champion for the season.
9. Frank Jackson - New York Knicks OK, so Frank really hasn't done MUCH... but what he has done has looked really solid. He was mentor eligible, but Ank chose to give those points to Norm Powell, so it will have to wait for next year. He's been hyper-efficient so far, and simply doesn't turn it over. That said, he doesn't force TOs either. He looks to be pretty terrible defensively. We'll wait and see on this one.
10. Harry Giles - Toronto Raptors He won't be getting a ton of PT this season in Toronto, but for now he looks adequate. A low-TO, high defense big (1st in blocks/stocks) who is moderately efficient. He really doesn't rebound well, though. He still has +20 left, but won't receive additional upgrades this season.
11. Bam Adebayo - Houston Rockets A do everything big, 2nd in rebounding, 2nd in blocks/stocks, volume scoring... but he's inefficient (sub 40% FG... yikes) and turns it over a good amount (3.3/36). His upgrades were maxed, but he still has high POT... so maybe in future years some of those problems can get massaged to reasonable levels.
Honorable Mentions:
Points:
![]() Kadeem Allen - Miami Heat
Wings: Dwayne Bacon - Miami Heat Josh Jackson - Indiana Pacers O.G. Anunoby - Carolina Cougars
Bigs: Isaiah Hicks - Charlotte Bobcats
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Chaps
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Post by Chaps on Oct 25, 2021 9:05:12 GMT -5
Lonzo was summed without his jumpsuit upgraded, his stats might looks nicer after today's sim
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Post by delap on Oct 25, 2021 9:07:30 GMT -5
Lonzo was summed without his jumpsuit upgraded, his stats might looks nicer after today's sim  |
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Post by Yawn of the Dead on Oct 25, 2021 13:03:29 GMT -5
kaba will receive the full +30 collins 10 this season
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Post by delap on Oct 27, 2021 13:19:47 GMT -5
Day 40 UpdateClarity! Maybe!?! We now have a much bigger sample and some guys maybe have received their upgrades, you can never tell. Some guys, like De'Aaron Fox or Ike Anigbogu, might be good! But they've played < 55 minutes total, so they're not gonna be listed here. Others, like Donovan Mitchell, are playing out of position so I don't know what to think... but he may sneak on given his strong performance so far. The top 5 or so of the ladder is still very much a jumble... this feels like the first year in a long time without a true #1 that is clear to see. 1. Jaron Blossomgame - Seattle SuperSonics (previous: 3)1st in P/TSA, virtually identical stats to Tatum, except for a decided advantage on defense and efficiency. His lack of potential is the main thing keeping him grounded, but he could possibly receive another +10 in mentorship over the next two seasons if other Sonics players do their jobs and remain eligible.  2. Markelle Fultz - Cleveland Cavaliers (previous: 1)A decent decline in P/TSA and an uptick in TOs moves Fultz down a spot. Overall, though, he still looks like the premier PG of the class and like a potential all-star.  3. Jayson Tatum - Phoenix Suns (previous: 2)As stated above, his stats are nearly identical to Blossomgame's, but he still has the growth potential that is tantalizing... even though he doesn't seem to play any defense. It's really hard to only average .6 steals/36 (lowest in the class).  4. John Collins - Washington Bullets (previous: 4)3rd in P/TSA, an adequate rebounder and defender, and a low low 1.5 TOs/36, Collins looks to be the real deal. I would want to see a touch more scoring initiative from him, though. Still has upgrades out there.  5a. Justin Patton - San Antonio Spurs (previous: 7)
5b. Isaiah Hicks - Charlotte Bobcats (previous: HM)Patton is 2nd in P/TSA, is a decent rebounder, and has a low TO rate. Hicks, though, makes Patton's low TO rate look like total garbage. He simply doesn't turn it over, is efficient, and scores well. His weakness is rebounding, though. Both are decent defenders, and while Hicks is better today, Patton still has high potential and all of his upgrades left. I want Hicks to play more, as his sample is almost too low to warrant inclusion on the big boy ladder.   7. V.J. Beachem - Los Angeles Lakers (previous: 6)He's efficient, doesn't turn it over, and scores at a decent clip. Like before, he's a cut-rate Jayson Tatum on a 2nd round deal. He'll almost assuredly (unlike Blossomgame) receive his full +10 in mentoring over the next 2 seasons, so there is some hope here if he can improve on the boards or on the defensive end at all.  8a. Lonzo Ball - Texas Chaparrals (previous: 5)
8b. Alpha Kaba - Washington Bullets (previous: 8)Lumped together because they both have high ceilings, but are incredible TO machines right now. Both are somewhat efficient despite FT struggles. Lonzo looks to be a decent defender and a very good rebounder for a PG. Kaba is one of the stronger rebounders in the class (it's a weak-ish rebounding class), but simply doesn't defend at all. Both really need to improve their handles to become winning players... but the door is open for both of them to do so.   10. Harry Giles - Toronto Raptors (previous: 10)Smallish sample, so this is the last time on the ladder for him unless the lineups in Toronto change drastically. In limited time he appears to be the best defender of the class, leading in blocks, steals, and stocks... but it could be a small sample Potemkin. He'll probably need to wait for the Sophomore Staircase to really shine. Still has +20 that hasn't been added.  Honorable Mentions:
Points:
De'Aaron Fox - Los Angeles Lakers
Donovan Mitchell - Vancouver Grizzlies
Jawun Evans - Orlando Magic
Kadeem Allen - Miami Heat
Wings:
Sterling Brown - Orlando Magic
Dillon Brooks - Milwaukee Bucks
OG Anunoby - Carolina Cougars
Josh Jackson - Indiana Pacers
Bigs:
Ike Anigbogu - Carolina Cougars
Kyle Kuzma - Cleveland Cavaliers
Bam Adebayo - Houston Rockets
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Post by 20s on Oct 27, 2021 14:01:38 GMT -5
OG’s haters fuel him
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Post by delap on Oct 27, 2021 14:03:14 GMT -5
he is likely the next man up once Giles falls off at the next update. |
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Post by TinyTimPig on Oct 27, 2021 14:11:25 GMT -5
OG should be like #4 imo
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Post by delap on Nov 1, 2021 8:03:59 GMT -5
Day 80 UpdateThe sample grows, gaps appear between tiers and rungs, and will OG finally make it? (yeah, probably... he's good... but as I'm typing this sentence I haven't looked at the stats yet or ranked/tiered the players, so who knows? That whole "gaps appear between tiers and rungs" line may not even be true. I'm flying blind, baby! (update: I looked now. Guys like Allen, Anigbogu, Hicks, and Giles just don't have enough MP, so they are out! There is real competition for the last 7 spots on the ladder and a couple of HM spots (I really looked for spots for Fox/Ball/Adebayo)... so that means I think the Top 3 have decent separation at this moment from the pack) 1. Markelle Fultz - Cleveland Cavaliers (previous: 2)Back on top, Fultz got his camp and looks very very good at a position of high importance. The only downside to him right now is that his TOs are a little bit higher than you'd like... but 2.5/36 isn't really terrible for a PG and he should be able to improve naturally in that respect. His steal rate isn't fantastic, but not terrible either. He's 2nd in P/TSA and scores at a pretty high volume.  2. Jayson Tatum - Phoenix Suns (previous: 3)4th in P/TSA, 2nd in scoring (if you remove the minor league all-stars), and he simply doesn't turn it over... Tatum grabs the 2nd spot and is just a fraction behind Fultz at the moment. The plus side? He still has a lot of potential to grow. The down side? No defense at all (in terms of counting stats). The other plus side? He's a strong, but not elite, rebounder from the wing.  3. Jaron Blossomgame - Seattle SuperSonics (previous: 1)Falling to third, as his stats and Tatum's are nearly indistinguishable at this point... but his upside is far lower. He's 3rd in P/TSA and a slightly better defender than Tatum, but slightly worse at everything else. He's still a darn good player on a 2nd Round contract. Hopefully he can get some mentor points to boost his future.  4. V.J. Beachem - Los Angeles Lakers (previous: 7)1st in P/TSA, decent volume, better than expected rebounding... but subpar defense, Beachem really continues to look like the GreatValue Jayson Tatum. I still haven't been able to really calibrate how playing on an elite team might raise the floor of your lesser regarded players... so maybe he's really bad on a different squad? I really can't tell. He's here for now, but could have easily ended up in the back half of the ladder if his efficiency had slipped at all.  5a. Justin Patton - San Antonio Spurs (previous: 5a)
5b. John Collins - Washington Bullets (previous: 4)
5c. Alpha Kaba - Washington Bullets (previous: 8b)A sort of "pick your need" group here, bigs that offer different abilities to fit your situation. Patton gets the top spot because he hasn't been upgraded at all and has that shiny "A" potential from the draft. He's also the best defender of this micro-group, but none of them are defensive all-stars. Patton and Kaba are above-average in efficiency (Collins is right about league average), Patton and Collins are low TO bigs, even though they have decent usage rate (Kaba is a TO machine), and Kaba is the top non-minor scorer in the entire class. Kaba gets moved up from his past ranking, though, as his FT% has ticked up slightly and his TO/rate, to his credit, has moved down a bit. I am still bullish on Collins over Kaba long-term... but maybe I'm the only one?    8. OG Anunoby - Carolina Cougars (previous: HM)So I'm perennially in favor of no-shoot defensive bigs... I love them. OG is the best version we've seen so far of a no-shoot wing. I think he is very very elite at that... I'm just not so sure how valuable that can be unless you are in the right team situation that absolutely can thrive without a bit of help from the wing. To his credit, his TOs have come down a bit (he turns it over a lot for being so low usage) and his efficiency has moved up nearly a full .1 from the last update. He's an elite rebounder from the wing and is already one of the better wing defenders in the entire league. He's good, he deserves a spot on the ladder, but I am not convinced his ceiling is elite elite because of the lack of scoring desire/ability.  9. Kyle Kuzma - Cleveland Cavaliers (previous: HM)The best board man in the class, Kuzma could also turn into a decent scorer for the Cavs. He still has a full +30 to receive, so his scoring grades could look very nice in a few seasons. He plays very very little defense, but his rebounding ability is so strong that that could likely be overlooked if his scoring jumps up a notch or three.  10. Donovan Mitchell - Vancouver Grizzlies (previous: HM)OK... so I'm convinced he can be a solid, exciting starting SG, even if the whole PG thing doesn't work out. He's 5th in P/TSA, seems to be destined as an Inside Offense player only, and rebounds extraordinarily well for a PG build (even adjusting for the little bump he gets from playing SG full time right now). He's a strong defender and a low TO player. If he can keep up some of those efficiencies while playing PG his ceiling is MUCH higher... but even as a SG he's a great looking prospect, with high POT and +30 waiting there to be claimed.  Honorable Mentions:
Points:
Lonzo Ball - Texas Chaparrals
Frank Jackson - New York Knicks
De'Aaron Fox - Los Angeles Lakers
Wings:
Dillon Brooks - Milwaukee Bucks
Davon Reed - San Antonio Spurs
Josh Jackson - Indiana Pacers
Bigs:
Bam Adebayo - Houston Rockets
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Post by delap on Nov 5, 2021 12:05:24 GMT -5
Final Ladder StandingsThe top 3 has been the same guys in some order for every update... and the final update remains the same. They really are a cut above everyone else in the class. After that there are some really solid players, but most of them have one big wart or question mark that makes you a bit uneasy about relying on them for stardom or even long-term starterdom. I also threw an extra player on the ladder, as a treat.
1. Markelle Fultz - Cleveland Cavaliers (previous: 1)His actual output this season is not clearly the best, but I think we can see that his future is the brightest. If his TOs inch down and steals inch up, he's an all-star lock and in contention for All-League teams every year.  2a. Jayson Tatum - Phoenix Suns (previous: 2)
2b. Jaron Blossomgame - Seattle SuperSonics (previous: 3)Let's just call this a dead tie. Their outputs are eerily similar, with Tatum having the slightest edge on the boards and Blossomgame being slightly more careful and efficient with the rock. Tatum could still get some solid TC love, so he probably deserves the slightest edge over Jaron.   4. V.J. Beachem - Los Angeles Lakers (previous: 4)Sure? I don't know what to do with this guy, he's Tatum-lite but without the growth probability. He does get the benefit of 2 more years of mentoring, though, so that's nice.  5a. Justin Patton - San Antonio Spurs (previous: 5a)
5b. John Collins - Washington Bullets(previous: 5b)I've dropped Kaba down a few spots and I'm left with these two. Same reasons as before... Patton has upgrades and potential left... Collins is a more finished product and slightly better player today. neither of them have the rancid TO issues that have plagued Kaba.   7. OG Anunoby - Carolina Cougars (previous: 8)He's dipped a bit more in efficiency and his otherworldly steal-rate now looks like just a very very very good steal-rate. That said, he's elite on the boards and is a plug and play wing in almost any system that won't take shots away from your top tier scorers. I'd actually want him on my team more than the 3 players right above him... but he's probably a bit of an acquired taste and won't ever be anything passable on offense.  8. Alpha Kaba - Washington Bullets (previous: 5c)The TOs are too much for me. He's really solid on the boards and is a good volume scorer on more-or-less average efficiency... but he's a TO machine with very little defensive upside.  9a. Donovan Mitchell - Vancouver Grizzlies (previous: 10)
9b. Dillon Brooks - Milwaukee Bucks (previous: HM) Both playing at SG right now, but Donovan has the eligibility to become a difference maker at PG, assuming his TOs don't balloon. Neither are stellar defenders, but that could grow a bit for either of them. Mitchell seems to be more locked in to an inside offensive scheme, whereas Brooks is more versatile in that respect.   11. Kyle Kuzma - Cleveland Cavaliers (previous: 9)Honestly he's an Alpha Kaba-lite... but without the TO problems... and no potential upside from what we know. That said, he's the best rebounder in the class (setting aside small-sample Anigbogu) and doesn't have any major major flaws in his game.  Honorable Mentions:
Points:
Lonzo Ball - Texas Chaparrals
Frank Jackson - New York Knicks
De'Aaron Fox - Los Angeles Lakers
Wings:
Davon Reed - San Antonio Spurs
Josh Jackson - Indiana Pacers
Bigs:
Bam Adebayo - Houston Rockets
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Post by Herby New Year! on Nov 5, 2021 12:22:01 GMT -5
65k
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Post by Sapular on Nov 5, 2021 12:32:38 GMT -5
80K
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2021 12:36:01 GMT -5
100k
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Post by TinyTimPig on Nov 5, 2021 12:39:06 GMT -5
2a. Jayson Tatum - Phoenix Suns (previous: 2) 2b. Jaron Blossomgame - Seattle SuperSonics (previous: 3) 1.15 vs. 1.19 pts/tsa though 70,000 |
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Post by delap on Nov 5, 2021 12:48:45 GMT -5
2a. Jayson Tatum - Phoenix Suns (previous: 2) 2b. Jaron Blossomgame - Seattle SuperSonics (previous: 3) 1.15 vs. 1.19 pts/tsa though 70,000
"Blossomgame being slightly more careful and efficient with the rock."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2021 12:52:37 GMT -5
1.15 vs. 1.19 pts/tsa though 70,000
"Blossomgame being slightly more careful and efficient with the rock."
Blossom also has +10 left from mentor that you didnt account for. I would rather have blossom
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Post by delap on Nov 5, 2021 12:54:01 GMT -5
"Blossomgame being slightly more careful and efficient with the rock."
Blossom also has +10 left from mentor that you didnt account for. I would rather have blossom
Gotta have a mentor to be mentored...
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Post by Fason on Nov 5, 2021 12:55:43 GMT -5
85k
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Post by TinyTimPig on Nov 5, 2021 13:00:35 GMT -5
1.15 vs. 1.19 pts/tsa though 70,000
"Blossomgame being slightly more careful and efficient with the rock."
Slightly is an understatement IMO. A .04 difference is the same as the difference between Kyrie Irving's and Joseph Fogarty's efficiency. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2021 13:05:13 GMT -5
Blossom also has +10 left from mentor that you didnt account for. I would rather have blossom
Gotta have a mentor to be mentored...
This is one of those rare scenarios where you make sure to trade for the shittiest guy that is mentor eligible
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Post by delap on Nov 5, 2021 13:11:10 GMT -5
Gotta have a mentor to be mentored...
This is one of those rare scenarios where you make sure to trade for the shittiest guy that is mentor eligible
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