Post by eric on Oct 22, 2021 13:13:33 GMT -5
I looked at everyone's rank in regular season WS/48 and playoffs WS/48, taking into account only NBA minutes, so George Mikan can take his NBL MVP and shovel it. There ended up being 173 players in the top 250 of each, ranging from Michael Jordan at #1 and #1 allllll the way down to Brian Grant at #243 and #242.
61 players on the NBA 75th Anniversary Team were on both lists, and another
8 were on at least one, and another
1 was Bill Walton, who did win an MVP and Finals MVP before career curtailing injuries that wound up holding him below the MP thresholds for each list.
This leaves six (sic) players as the most egregious inclusions. We'll get to them in a second.
Of the 35 players to win at least one MVP award, two did not make the team.
Nikola Jokic is a big cute baby and will probably make the NBA 100th Anniversary Team.
Derrick Rose is on neither top 250 list, has a total of one (1) All-NBA Team selection, is the worst MVP selection of all time and probably won't even make the Hall of Fame, but at least punishing LeBron James so explicitly ensured there would never be another free agency superteam.
Of the 32 players to win at least one Finals MVP award, a whopping seven did not make the team, and three were on both top 250 lists:
#169 of 173 I can probably stop here but Andre Iguodala never made a single All-NBA Team and only made one All-Star Game, as a backup. Time for his candidacy to back up on outta here too.
#49 Cedric Maxwell (obviously) has the stats but (incredibly) has 0 awards beyond his Finals MVP - no All-NBA, no All-Star, no All-Rookie, not even a pity All-Defensive Second Team.
But the biggest snub of the team goes to #29 Chauncey Billups, who managed five All-Stars and three All-NBAs to go along with his Finals MVP. It's fair to say he never got All-NBA First Team, but neither did Sinister Six member and erstwhile teammate Carmelo Anthony. Melo OUT, Mr. Big Shot IN.
The other four Finals MVPs don't have great cases: Dennis Johnson is the only one with an (singular) All-NBA First Team but isn't in either top 250, Joe Dumars, Tony Parker, and Jo Jo White have All- credentials similar to Billups but dramatically worse stats. We'll certainly keep them in mind for promotions but none of them are obvious shoe-ins.
Speaking of obvious shoe-ins, 25 of the 26 players with five or more All-NBA First Teams are on the team, and 33 of the 34 players with eight or more All-NBA Teams total are on the team, and it's the same guy missing from both, Dwight Howard. Meanwhile there's a great defensive center on the team with a crisp zero All-NBA Teams, but he does have five All-Defensive Teams. That's cool, so does Dwight. Well this guy on the team has two All-Defensive First Teams. That's cute, Dwight has four. So Nate Thurmond can man his chair for a while because Superman is IN.
Speaking of zero All-NBA Teams, Lenny Wilkens come on down! Wilkens does sport a prestigious All-Star MVP, nine All-Stars, and above league average stats (incredibly this will not be true of all members of the Sinister Six), but when Original Bird George Yardley has elite stats (#32) and an All-NBA First, it's time for Lenny to pick up the clipboard - bald guy OUT, bald guy IN! But a different bald guy!
The last three Sinistrals are Dave Bing, Dave DeBusschere, and Pete Maravich. Bing has just barely above league average stats in the regular season (ring a ding, Bing), two All-NBA Firsts, seven All-Stars, and an All-Star MVP - he's clearly the best of the bunch. Maravich is below average in both the regular season and the playoffs but he's got two All-NBA Firsts too. DeBusschere has below league average stats, only one All-NBA Team, and it's a Second - catch the bus, cherie.
But who's coming in? There's no "slam" dunk answer.
Adrian Dantley has the best stats left at #27 (since every one of the top 26 stats is on the team, 26 for 26), he has two All-NBA Seconds and six All-Stars, but he's kind of a pill.
Bob Davies, Neil Johnston, and 5.0 Suns great Max "Slats" Zasflosky each have four All-NBA Firsts, but they're all goofy white guys from the 50s.
And we've still got those four Finals MVPs from before.
But for my money the best bets are first Amar'e Stoudemire: his #51 stats six All-Stars five All-NBAs with a First is a compelling resume on its own, and if we're giving Walton the injury benefit of the doubt it only seems fair to factor it in for Stoudemire too. Then Tracy McGrady has seven total All-NBAs (only one besides Dwight of seven+ not to make it) and solid stats at #96, and if we're holding losing in the first round like a hundred times against him we ought to hold it against known losers Maravich and Bing too.
.
Bottom line for me, listed in descending confidence:
Carmelo Anthony OUT, Chauncey Billups IN
Nate Thurmond OUT, Dwight Howard IN
Lenny Wilkens OUT, George Yardley IN
Dave Debusschere OUT, Amar'e Stoudemire IN
Pete Maravich OUT, Tracy McGrady IN
Dave Bing OUT, Joe Dumars IN
These six definitely belong the least. There could be more deserving removals and replacements, but as I hope this exercise showed the resumes get surprisingly thin out at the edge.
.
.
APPENDIX A - full list of players on both top 250 lists
APPENDIX B - list of 75th Anniversary Team members by aggregate rank out of 173, followed by one-listers in alphabetical order and Bill Walton
APPENDIX C - list of remaining top 60 ranks with selected career credentials
61 players on the NBA 75th Anniversary Team were on both lists, and another
8 were on at least one, and another
1 was Bill Walton, who did win an MVP and Finals MVP before career curtailing injuries that wound up holding him below the MP thresholds for each list.
This leaves six (sic) players as the most egregious inclusions. We'll get to them in a second.
Of the 35 players to win at least one MVP award, two did not make the team.
Nikola Jokic is a big cute baby and will probably make the NBA 100th Anniversary Team.
Derrick Rose is on neither top 250 list, has a total of one (1) All-NBA Team selection, is the worst MVP selection of all time and probably won't even make the Hall of Fame, but at least punishing LeBron James so explicitly ensured there would never be another free agency superteam.
Of the 32 players to win at least one Finals MVP award, a whopping seven did not make the team, and three were on both top 250 lists:
#169 of 173 I can probably stop here but Andre Iguodala never made a single All-NBA Team and only made one All-Star Game, as a backup. Time for his candidacy to back up on outta here too.
#49 Cedric Maxwell (obviously) has the stats but (incredibly) has 0 awards beyond his Finals MVP - no All-NBA, no All-Star, no All-Rookie, not even a pity All-Defensive Second Team.
But the biggest snub of the team goes to #29 Chauncey Billups, who managed five All-Stars and three All-NBAs to go along with his Finals MVP. It's fair to say he never got All-NBA First Team, but neither did Sinister Six member and erstwhile teammate Carmelo Anthony. Melo OUT, Mr. Big Shot IN.
The other four Finals MVPs don't have great cases: Dennis Johnson is the only one with an (singular) All-NBA First Team but isn't in either top 250, Joe Dumars, Tony Parker, and Jo Jo White have All- credentials similar to Billups but dramatically worse stats. We'll certainly keep them in mind for promotions but none of them are obvious shoe-ins.
Speaking of obvious shoe-ins, 25 of the 26 players with five or more All-NBA First Teams are on the team, and 33 of the 34 players with eight or more All-NBA Teams total are on the team, and it's the same guy missing from both, Dwight Howard. Meanwhile there's a great defensive center on the team with a crisp zero All-NBA Teams, but he does have five All-Defensive Teams. That's cool, so does Dwight. Well this guy on the team has two All-Defensive First Teams. That's cute, Dwight has four. So Nate Thurmond can man his chair for a while because Superman is IN.
Speaking of zero All-NBA Teams, Lenny Wilkens come on down! Wilkens does sport a prestigious All-Star MVP, nine All-Stars, and above league average stats (incredibly this will not be true of all members of the Sinister Six), but when Original Bird George Yardley has elite stats (#32) and an All-NBA First, it's time for Lenny to pick up the clipboard - bald guy OUT, bald guy IN! But a different bald guy!
The last three Sinistrals are Dave Bing, Dave DeBusschere, and Pete Maravich. Bing has just barely above league average stats in the regular season (ring a ding, Bing), two All-NBA Firsts, seven All-Stars, and an All-Star MVP - he's clearly the best of the bunch. Maravich is below average in both the regular season and the playoffs but he's got two All-NBA Firsts too. DeBusschere has below league average stats, only one All-NBA Team, and it's a Second - catch the bus, cherie.
But who's coming in? There's no "slam" dunk answer.
Adrian Dantley has the best stats left at #27 (since every one of the top 26 stats is on the team, 26 for 26), he has two All-NBA Seconds and six All-Stars, but he's kind of a pill.
Bob Davies, Neil Johnston, and 5.0 Suns great Max "Slats" Zasflosky each have four All-NBA Firsts, but they're all goofy white guys from the 50s.
And we've still got those four Finals MVPs from before.
But for my money the best bets are first Amar'e Stoudemire: his #51 stats six All-Stars five All-NBAs with a First is a compelling resume on its own, and if we're giving Walton the injury benefit of the doubt it only seems fair to factor it in for Stoudemire too. Then Tracy McGrady has seven total All-NBAs (only one besides Dwight of seven+ not to make it) and solid stats at #96, and if we're holding losing in the first round like a hundred times against him we ought to hold it against known losers Maravich and Bing too.
.
Bottom line for me, listed in descending confidence:
Carmelo Anthony OUT, Chauncey Billups IN
Nate Thurmond OUT, Dwight Howard IN
Lenny Wilkens OUT, George Yardley IN
Dave Debusschere OUT, Amar'e Stoudemire IN
Pete Maravich OUT, Tracy McGrady IN
Dave Bing OUT, Joe Dumars IN
These six definitely belong the least. There could be more deserving removals and replacements, but as I hope this exercise showed the resumes get surprisingly thin out at the edge.
.
.
APPENDIX A - full list of players on both top 250 lists
agg rs po name
1 1 1 Michael Jordan
2 6 3 LeBron James
3 3 8 Wilt Chamberlain
4 2 9 David Robinson
5 9 5 Magic Johnson
6 11 4 Kawhi Leonard
7 12 9 Kevin Durant
8 5 16 Chris Paul
9 15 7 Jerry West
10 7 16 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
11 13 15 Charles Barkley
12 17 13 Tim Duncan
13 8 24 James Harden
14 21 12 Stephen Curry
15 19 23 Shaquille O'Neal
16 33 11 Giannis Antetokounmpo
17 29 19 Dolph Schayes
18 27 21 Dirk Nowitzki
19 20 28 Oscar Robertson
20 28 29 Bill Russell
21 23 35 Larry Bird
22 34 25 Paul Arizin
23 16 47 Bob Pettit
24 50 14 Walt Frazier
25 18 46 John Stockton
26 49 20 Hakeem Olajuwon
27 31 38 Adrian Dantley
28 39 33 Kevin McHale
29 52 22 Chauncey Billups
30 42 32 Bill Sharman
31 30 44 Manu Ginóbili
32 43 33 George Yardley
33 51 26 Reggie Miller
34 44 36 Moses Malone
35 35 49 Sam Jones
36 26 58 Jimmy Butler
37 54 31 Bob Lanier
38 58 42 Dwight Howard
39 37 66 Kevin Garnett
40 22 81 Karl Malone
41 53 51 Bobby Jones
42 68 37 Cliff Hagan
43 66 40 Kyrie Irving
44 91 18 Frank Ramsey
45 69 40 Don Nelson
46 61 48 Vern Mikkelsen
47 60 49 Kobe Bryant
48 45 65 Julius Erving
49 78 39 Cedric Maxwell
50 64 55 Pau Gasol
51 63 59 Amar'e Stoudemire
52 71 53 Dwyane Wade
53 48 77 Dan Issel
54 59 69 Larry Nance
55 73 62 Marques Johnson
56 83 63 Brad Daugherty
57 77 73 Chris Bosh
58 62 91 Kevin Love
59 56 97 DeAndre Jordan
60 86 68 Rick Barry
61 67 87 Alonzo Mourning
62 84 71 Willis Reed
63 97 60 Dikembe Mutombo
64 72 87 Blake Griffin
65 46 114 Clyde Lovellette
66 92 70 Jeff Hornacek
67 40 123 Bailey Howell
68 57 107 Clyde Drexler
69 75 90 George Gervin
70 88 83 Tyson Chandler
71 65 107 Chet Walker
72 127 52 Horace Grant
73 70 110 Steve Nash
74 14 166 Otis Thorpe
75 108 75 Ray Allen
76 131 54 Shawn Kemp
77 110 78 Terry Porter
78 32 157 Sidney Moncrief
79 76 117 Joakim Noah
80 95 99 Larry Foust
81 153 45 Ben Wallace
82 85 120 Al Horford
83 99 109 Zelmo Beaty
84 123 86 Anderson Varejão
85 112 97 Tom Heinsohn
86 117 93 Bill Laimbeer
87 47 164 Kevin Johnson
88 118 94 Steven Adams
89 146 67 Marcin Gortat
90 81 132 Paul Pierce
91 133 81 Scottie Pippen
92 41 177 Damian Lillard
93 143 76 Marc Gasol
94 122 106 Elgin Baylor
95 188 43 Brook Lopez
96 98 135 Tracy McGrady
97 115 119 Patrick Ewing
98 96 142 Paul George
99 90 148 Robert Parish
100 74 168 Walt Bellamy
101 174 72 Hersey Hawkins
102 94 153 Russell Westbrook
103 172 79 Clifford Ray
104 125 128 Eddie Jones
105 199 56 Draymond Green
106 142 116 Maurice Cheeks
107 149 111 Serge Ibaka
108 124 136 Wes Unseld
109 173 102 John Havlicek
110 116 161 Dennis Rodman
111 89 190 Kyle Lowry
112 217 64 Gus Williams
113 154 127 Steve Kerr
114 157 126 Steve Smith
115 189 95 Bob Dandridge
116 162 124 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
117 160 130 Doc Rivers
118 141 149 George Hill
119 158 133 Rasheed Wallace
120 203 91 Toni Kukoč
121 114 180 Shawn Marion
122 106 189 Bob McAdoo
123 195 104 James Worthy
124 87 212 Paul Westphal
125 152 152 Dave Cowens
126 79 225 Mark Price
127 177 129 Mike Conley
128 148 158 David West
129 228 80 Anfernee Hardaway
130 105 203 Paul Millsap
131 121 192 Kiki Vandeweghe
132 150 170 Dale Davis
133 218 103 Kerry Kittles
134 156 171 Nenê Hilário
135 93 236 LaMarcus Aldridge
136 144 186 Mehmet Okur
137 169 171 Marcus Camby
138 220 121 Alex English
139 200 142 Darryl Dawkins
140 134 208 Jack Sikma
141 193 154 Larry Johnson
142 209 140 Walter Davis
143 128 221 Peja Stojaković
144 135 215 Calvin Natt
145 168 187 Vlade Divac
146 161 194 Bob Cousy
147 207 150 Taj Gibson
148 182 176 Jason Kidd
149 213 146 P.J. Brown
150 196 163 Vince Carter
151 126 237 Jerry Lucas
152 233 131 Fred Brown
153 204 162 Deron Williams
154 190 177 A.C. Green
155 119 248 Gary Payton
156 140 232 Brent Barry
157 194 180 Rashard Lewis
158 201 175 Terry Cummings
159 164 215 Sam Perkins
160 163 219 Anthony Mason
161 191 199 Lou Hudson
162 175 222 Buck Williams
163 247 156 B.J. Armstrong
164 165 249 Happy Hairston
165 184 233 Calvin Murphy
166 222 197 Allen Iverson
167 227 200 Earl Monroe
168 232 204 Dan Majerle
169 244 193 Andre Iguodala
170 197 243 Alvan Adams
171 223 231 Mario Elie
172 240 220 Tom Sanders
173 243 242 Brian GrantAPPENDIX B - list of 75th Anniversary Team members by aggregate rank out of 173, followed by one-listers in alphabetical order and Bill Walton
rank name
1 Michael Jordan
2 Lebron James
3 Wilt Chamberlain
4 David Robinson
5 Magic Johnson
6 Kawhi Leonard
7 Kevin Durant
8 Chris Paul
9 Jerry West
10 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
11 Charles Barkley
12 Tim Duncan
13 James Harden
14 Stephen Curry
15 Shaquille O'Neal
16 Giannis Antetokounmpo
17 Dolph Schayes
18 Dirk Nowitzki
19 Oscar Robertson
20 Bill Russell
21 Larry Bird
22 Paul Arizin
23 Bob Pettit
24 Walt Frazier
25 John Stockton
26 Hakeem Olajuwon
28 Kevin Mchale
30 Bill Sharman
33 Reggie Miller
34 Moses Malone
35 Sam Jones
39 Kevin Garnett
40 Karl Malone
47 Kobe Bryant
48 Julius Erving
52 Dwyane Wade
60 Rick Barry
62 Willis Reed
68 Clyde Drexler
69 George Gervin
73 Steve Nash
75 Ray Allen
90 Paul Pierce
91 Scottie Pippen
92 Damian Lillard
94 Elgin Baylor
97 Patrick Ewing
99 Robert Parish
102 Russell Westbrook
108 Wes Unseld
109 John Havlicek
110 Dennis Rodman
122 Bob Mcadoo
123 James Worthy
125 Dave Cowens
146 Bob Cousy
148 Jason Kidd
151 Jerry Lucas
155 Gary Payton
166 Allen Iverson
167 Earl Monroe
Anthony Davis
Billy Cunningham
Dominique Wilkins
Elvin Hayes
George Mikan
Hal Greer
Isiah Thomas
Tiny Archibald
Bill WaltonAPPENDIX C - list of remaining top 60 ranks with selected career credentials
as 3 2 1 asmvp mvp fmvp rank name
6 2 27 Adrian Dantley
5 2 1 1 29 Chauncey Billups
2 2 31 Manu Ginóbili
6 1 1 32 George Yardley
5 4 36 Jimmy Butler
8 1 37 Bob Lanier
8 2 1 5 38 Dwight Howard
4 41 Bobby Jones
5 2 42 Cliff Hagan
7 2 1 1 43 Kyrie Irving
0 44 Frank Ramsey
0 45 Don Nelson
6 4 46 Vern Mikkelsen
0 1 49 Cedric Maxwell
6 2 2 50 Pau Gasol
6 4 1 51 Amar'e Stoudemire
1 53 Dan Issel
3 54 Larry Nance
5 2 1 55 Marques Johnson
5 1 56 Brad Daugherty
11 1 57 Chris Bosh
5 2 58 Kevin Love
1 2 1 59 DeAndre Jordan
