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Post by delap on Apr 27, 2021 6:56:00 GMT -5
Pre-Season - Initial Standings
After multiple years of deep and top heavy classes... this class appears to be neither. I'm guessing there is going to be a lot of shifting going forward as sample size grows and players compete against the best of the best, who tend to sit in pre-season. I feel less confident about placement for any of these guys than normal, given the kinda 'meh' output of everyone. There is not an elite scorer or rebounder in the class, from the looks of it. There are some decent defenders, though. Most of these guys would've been HM in the last 3 seasons and not really considered for the main rungs of the ladder. That said... I cheated at the end of the ladder by lumping 4 bigs together at the 9th slot because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
1. Chris Webber - Miami Heat 2nd leading scorer in the class... but with pretty bad efficiency, Webber has a few very solid qualities. He is a great defender out of the box, 2nd in blocks and with nearly 3 bleals/36. His rebounding should grow naturally, but it isn't anything to be excited about right now. Him landing at #1 for now is based a good bit on expectations than pure output... largely because there wasn't another player with an output so strong to knock him off.
2. Ervin Johnson - Brooklyn Nets Very similar output to Webber, just slightly worse at basically everything. Strong defensive numbers relative to the class, but as will be a theme, another big with <10 rebounds/36.
3. Bryon Russell - Orlando Magic 2nd in P/TSA, but his volume is pretty iffy. Very strong rebounder for a wing, but his defensive stats (only 1.0 steals/36) are a bit troubling. He doesn't turn it over though, which is a big bonus.
4a. Vin Baker - Charlotte Hornets 4b. Rich Manning - Orlando Magic
Similar to Webber/Ervin "Non-Magical" Johnson, but without the defense, Baker and Manning hve a slightly higher P/TSA than those two and looks like they could become strong inside scorers down the line. Baker takes care of the ball, whereas Manning doesn't so much... but Manning doesn't look like he needs many points into jumpshot, so he could be upgraded in other areas down the line.
6a. Isaiah Rider - Chicago Stags 6b. Jamal Mashburn - Miami Heat Solid scoring wings, (Rider is 1st in P/TSA, Mashburn is 5th) who aren't terribly careful with the ball... but also aren't unplayable because of it. Neither bring a ton of defense on the wing in terms of steals or really standout as rebounders... they are solid, and that's good enough for this spot right now.
8. Anfernee Hardaway - Phoenix Suns Based on pure PG play, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have him here, but I really think he looks like he could be that PG-SF supersub as he was in 4.0 and be pretty elite. His TOs are a bit high, but hopefully will reduce over time. His stealing numbers are great and would likely be boosted even higher if his MP at SG or SF increased. I'd love to see andrewluck get playful with the DC this first year to find what works for him.
9a. Scott Haskin - Vancouver Grizzlies 9b. Shawn Bradley - Charlotte Bobcats 9c. Julius Nwosu - Milwaukee Bucks 9d. Acie Earl - Los Angeles Lakers These are the best non-Webber defensive bigs in the class, from the look of it. Even at that, Earl is the only one in double-digit rebounds/36 (at a robust 10.0/36)... so they can't really be called D/R bigs. However, none of them turn the ball over or waste possessions, so that's a big bonus. They will likely be separated with larger samples and diverse DC roles in the regular season, but for now they all get the final spots.
Honorable Mentions:
Points: Nick Van Exel - Los Angeles Clippers Lindsey Hunter - Los Angeles Lakers Adonis Jordan - Indiana Pacers
Wings: Lucious Harris - Carolina Cougars Calbert Cheaney - Pittsburgh Pipers Rex Walters - Atlanta Hawks Mitchell Butler - Vancouver Grizzlies
Bigs: Josh Grant - Carolina Cougars Evers Burns - Chicago Stags Bo Outlaw - Atlanta Hawks Gheorghe Muresan - Vancouver Grizzlies
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Post by skrouse on Apr 27, 2021 7:23:48 GMT -5
Will be interesting to see how much this changes post upgrades a few sims with the full league. I expect quite the shakeup.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2021 8:39:32 GMT -5
Will be interesting to see how much this changes post upgrades a few sims with the full league. I expect quite the shakeup.
yeah i think ervin johnson is clearly #1 after uppies
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Post by skrouse on Apr 27, 2021 8:53:23 GMT -5
Will be interesting to see how much this changes post upgrades a few sims with the full league. I expect quite the shakeup.
yeah i think ervin johnson is clearly #1 after uppies
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2021 8:54:18 GMT -5
yeah i think ervin johnson is clearly #1 after uppies
Nah
quoted for future ownage
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bankz
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Post by bankz on Apr 27, 2021 9:46:36 GMT -5
lol at Jamal Mashburn being put that low...
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Post by delap on Apr 30, 2021 13:24:11 GMT -5
Day 40 UpdateClass still doesn't look elite, and there is "competition" for the tail-end of the ladder... but the players competing aren't great. Webber is still #1 on the board... but his hold on the spot is tenuous at best. I see valid arguments for maybe 4-5 guys to be on top. As always, more sample at Day 80 should give us some separation and confidence. 1. Chris Webber - Miami Heat (previous: 1)The best defender in the class by a mile, averaging 2.5 blocks and 4.0 stocks per 36. He around league average for efficiency and his volume is good, not great. His rebounding is his Achilles Heel, but he balances that out with a very low TO rate.  2. Vin Baker - Charlotte Hornets (previous: 4a)Possibly inflated by having no competition for shots in Charlotte, but Baker is 2nd in total scoring and doing so at a high efficiency. Scouts were right to be concerned about his defense not translating from I-AA to the big leagues, but his TO rate is incredibly low. His rebounding is mediocre, though.  3. Jamal Mashburn - Miami Heat (previous: 6b)I still hate his TOs... but he is absolutely Monster Mashing down in Miami. 1st in total scoring among rookies, on a high efficiency. He is a great rebounder for a wing, too.  4a. Ervin Johnson - Brooklyn Nets (previous: 2)
4b. Josh Grant - Carolina Cougars (previous: HM)Both doing "Chris Webber"-lite impersonations, Johnson and Grant are efficient, medium-to-high volume guys who don't rebound and are good, but not great, defenders. Ervin has the edge due to slightly better ball control and rebounding right now.   6. Bryon Russell - Orlando Magic (previous: 3)Still not what I expected from Russell, with mediocre defense and OK rebounding... but he looks to be a very efficient scoring wing and those are always valuable.  7. Nick Van Exel - Los Angeles Clippers (previous: HM)What a freaking glow up from PS to now. Van Exel is scoring at a high clip... just not at great efficiency. Clearly the star of the class at PG, given the disappointment from Cassell and (to a far lesser extent) Hardaway.\\  8. Rich Manning - Orlando Magic (previous: 4b)Like the big guys above him in the 4 spots, but he turns it over more and he isn't a good defender. He is their equal in scoring and boards, though.  9. Acie Earl - Los Angeles Lakers (previous: 9d)The clear 2nd best defensive big in the class, and the top rebounder (discounting Nicola because of lack of sample), Earl is patrolling the Staples Center paint quite effectively. His shooting is poor, but he doesn't do it enough to cause worry... and he doesn't turn it over much.  10. Allan Houston - Los Angeles Clippers (previous: NR)Looks like my pre-draft prediction of calling him Rolando Blackman (circa 5.0) is correct. Good efficiency and good volume for a wing... but just terrible rebounding. The thing that makes him a little worse than Rolando was is those TOs. They have to be reduced for him to climb the ladder, given his rebounding issues.  Honorable Mentions:
Points:
Chris Whitney - Chicago Stags
Anfernee Hardaway - Phoenix Suns
Wings:
George Lynch - Seattle SuperSonics
Calbert Cheaney - Pittsburgh Pipers
Rex Walters - Atlanta Hawks
Isaiah Rider - Chicago Stags
Bigs:
Evers Burns - Chicago Stags
Scott Haskin - Vancouver Grizzlies
Marcelo Nicola - Toronto Raptors
Mark Buford - Atlanta Hawks
Gheorghe Muresan - Vancouver Grizzlies
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Post by 20s on Apr 30, 2021 13:31:18 GMT -5
Not enough PT for Lucious Harris to stay on HM?
Lucious Harris SG 28 7.3 9.7 6.2 3.2 0.9 0.4 0.9 .575 1.000 .538 1.345
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Post by delap on Apr 30, 2021 13:35:20 GMT -5
Not enough PT for Lucious Harris to stay on HM? Lucious Harris SG 28 7.3 9.7 6.2 3.2 0.9 0.4 0.9 .575 1.000 .538 1.345
Basically. And he's super efficient... and not much else. |
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Post by skrouse on Apr 30, 2021 13:36:15 GMT -5
Josh Grant must have had a really nice TC, looks a lot better than I expected, especially on the defensive end.
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Post by 20s on Apr 30, 2021 13:43:01 GMT -5
Josh Grant must have had a really nice TC, looks a lot better than I expected, especially on the defensive end. Did you have his scout? I basically took his shot blocking to the cap for PFs. |
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Post by skrouse on Apr 30, 2021 14:29:26 GMT -5
I did not
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Post by delap on May 5, 2021 11:51:04 GMT -5
Day 80 UpdateI really wish Odin would play Shawn Bradley more. He's fascinating in very very very limited minutes. Anywho, onto the conflicted and flawed ladder that is still a big ??? for large portions, like... I know Johnson, Grant, and Manning should be grouped together... how high should they be? I see 11 worthy ladder players, sorry Anfernee, you remain hanging out just on the outside of the list. 1. Chris Webber - Miami Heat (previous: 1)Still #1 because of his elite defense, despite his pedestrian P/TSA and oh yeah... still has a +20 sitting out there for duc to play with.  2. Vin Baker - Charlotte Hornets (previous: 2)Sticking with Vin at #2 because of his P/TSA and lower TO advantages over Mashburn... though the differences between the two are pretty slim.  3. Jamal Mashburn - Miami Heat (previous: 3)I'm just afraid those handles won't grow naturally. Like Vin, he's maxed out on upgrades. His major advantage is positional versatility.  4a. Ervin Johnson - Brooklyn Nets (previous: 4a)
4b. Josh Grant - Carolina Cougars (previous: 4b)
4c. Rich Manning - Orlando Magic (previous: 4c)All have a weakness (mostly rebounding) and some real strengths. Johnson is hyper efficient and good-enough on defense, combined with the lowest TO-rate of the group. Grant edges out Manning, because I'd prefer half a block over a whole board... but that's really the only difference right now. Manning's biggest advantage is that he still has +15 to go, while the others are maxed out.   
7. Nick Van Exel - Los Angeles Clippers (previous: 7)Love him, love his MPG (an underrated skill/attribute), and his low TO rate.  8. Bryon Russell - Orlando Magic (previous: 6)Slotting just ahead of Houston, because despite both of their flaws in defense... Russell at least rebounds the dang ball.  9. Allan Houston - Phoenix Suns (previous: 10)See above.  10. Acie Earl - Los Angeles Lakers (previous: 9)Top 2 in rebounding, Top 3-4 in defense... Earl slides ahead of Penny and bigs like McRae and Nicola because he doesn't have a glaring weakness. His spot is precarious, though.  Honorable Mentions:
Points:
Anfernee Hardaway - Phoenix Suns
Chris Whitney - Chicago Stags
Wings:
Rex Walters - Atlanta Hawks
George Lynch - Seattle SuperSonics
Calbert Cheaney - Pittsburgh Pipers
Bigs:
Evers Burns - Chicago Stags
Ashraf Amaya - Indiana Pacers
Ed Stokes - Indiana Pacers
Marcelo Nicola - Toronto Raptors
Gheorghe Muresan - Vancouver Grizzlies
Scott Haskin - Vancouver Grizzlies
Conrad McRae - Golden State Warriors
Mark Buford - Atlanta Hawks
Eric Riley - Charlotte Hornets
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Post by 20s on May 5, 2021 12:02:35 GMT -5
Manning's biggest advantage is that he still has +15 to go, while the others are maxed out. If everything goes as planned with Maye being a mentor, Grant will be getting +10 more inside. This was my plan when I upgraded him the way I did. We will see if the risk pays off. |
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Post by delap on May 10, 2021 14:55:30 GMT -5
Final UpdateWe made it folks, the class doesn't look super deep, but everyone on the ladder is well-deserving of a spot. Congrats to duc15 , skrouse please pay him his 1k reward from my coffers. I'm pretty sold on the Top 5 (including new addition NVE!), there is some major shuffling after that though. I don't see much space between guys like McRae, Manning, Grant, Earl, and Amaya... so you can really make an argument for any of them... but only two of them make the tail end of the list. I really wish Ed Stokes and/or Shawn Bradley had gotten more run... they intrigue me going forward. 1. Chris Webber - Miami Heat (previous: 1)I'm still sold on Webber as the best all-around player in this class. He doesn't have the offensive ceiling of a Baker or Mashburn, but he is a far superior defender to any of the other good offensive players.  2. Jamal Mashburn - Miami Heat (previous: 3)His wing-role and strong boards get him above the others on the list. His TOs have ticked down a bit over the season, too, which is nice.  3. Vin Baker - Charlotte Hornets (previous: 2)Lack of defense is a weakness and Fecta needs to hope for some growth in rebounding... but he can score and really does it efficiently.  4. Ervin Johnson - Brooklyn Nets (previous: 4a)1st in P/TSA, above average defense, and enough scoring volume to push him well ahead of the glut of other great, but not elite, bigs further down the ladder and in the HM section.  5. Nick Van Exel - Los Angeles Clippers (previous: 7)Not hyper efficient and an exceedingly crappy rebounder... but everything else is great for Nick the Quick. Few PGs in 6.0 have shown the scoring punch that NVE has.  6a. Allan Houston - Phoenix Suns (previous: 9)
6b. Bryon Russell - Orlando Magic (previous: 8)Very similar wings, with Houston being a stronger defender and more careful with the ball, and Russell being a far stronger rebounder... take your preference and run with it, as they'll both be solid starters for a while.   8. Anfernee Hardaway - Phoenix Suns (previous: HM)Strong defense and solid scoring, "Penny" is brimming with potential to move up the ranks in the future.  9a. Rich Manning - Orlando Magic (previous: 4c)
9b. Conrad McRae - Golden State Warriors (previous: HM)Manning gets the nod over the glut of good, not elite bigs because of his remaining +15 (no one else in this tier has improvements remaining). McRae gets the nod over the rest because of his defensive prowess and low TOs.   Honorable Mentions:
Points:
Chris Whitney - Chicago Stags
Wings:
Rodney Rogers - Charlotte Hornets
Evric Gray - Los Angeles Clippers
Calbert Cheaney - Pittsburgh Pipers
Scott Burrell - Texas Chaparrals
Rex Walters - Atlanta Hawks
Bigs:
Josh Grant - Carolina Cougars
Ashraf Amaya - Indiana Pacers
Acie Earl - Los Angeles Lakers
Gheorghe Muresan - Vancouver Grizzlies
Mark Buford - Atlanta Hawks
Bo Outlaw - Atlanta Hawks
Eric Riley - Charlotte Hornets
Marcelo Nicola - Toronto Raptors
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Post by 20s on May 10, 2021 14:58:13 GMT -5
Josh Grant goes from 4b to HM in one update?  |
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IanBoyd
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Post by IanBoyd on May 10, 2021 15:00:49 GMT -5
100k
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 15:13:08 GMT -5
80k
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mazunga
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Post by mazunga on May 10, 2021 15:16:58 GMT -5
90k
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Post by 20s on May 10, 2021 15:19:01 GMT -5
69k
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Post by TinyTimPig on May 10, 2021 15:19:32 GMT -5
69,874
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duc15
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Post by duc15 on May 10, 2021 15:32:11 GMT -5
100k
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Post by 20s on May 10, 2021 16:23:55 GMT -5
Per 36 stats:
Pos G P R A S B T FG% FT% 3P% P/TSA PER
PF 82 24.2 9.2 4.3 1.2 2.0 2.0 .479 .654 .500 1.053 20.8
PF 82 23.5 9.2 2.1 1.2 1.2 1.8 .485 .817 .400 1.115 19.3
1st line is #1 on the rookie ladder
2nd line is honorable mention
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